[Tikkun Daily has an update on this story here].
The news about Switzerland’s ban on the construction of minarets has made the headlines, providing shocking evidence of the strength of increasing intolerance in Europe. I shall be writing more about the minaret ban and its implications later, God willing, but right now I wanted to share an interesting side note.
Daniel Streich was a member of the Swiss People’s party (SVP), the political party that pushed the minaret ban initiative. Streich is a military instructor in the Swiss Army and a local politician in the commune of Bulle. Formerly a devout Christian, he converted to Islam–and kept it a secret for two years.
Streich has left the SVP, made his conversion to Islam public, and has denounced the SVP’s anti-Muslim campaign as a witch hunt. As far as I can tell, this story has not broken in the English language press. So, I translated a news article on Streich from German to English, published at the Swiss news site Twenty Minutes Online. Here it is:
Daniel Streich, military instructor and, until recently, a Swiss People’s Party (SVP) politician in the city of Bulle, has left the party. The reason: He converted to Islam. For two years he kept this secret from his ex-party. Now, with the “witch hunt against Islam,” this situation has become unbearable for him.
He was a true SVPer and Christian. He read the Bible and regularly went to church. Now Daniel Streich, military instructor and community council member, reads the Qur’an, prays five times a day and goes to a mosque. “Islam offers me logical answers to important life questions, which, in the end, I never found in Christianity,” says Streich.
Because he could no longer stand the “SVP’s witch hunt against Islam” Streich left the part two weeks ago (around November 10, 2009) and has made his conversion to Islam become publicly known two years after his conversion. Now he’s participating in the building of the new Civil Conservative Democratic Party in the canton of Freiburg. The former churchgoer is vehemently against the minaret initiative: “If the initiative passes, it will be an absolute deep blow for me. I would have to ask myself, why I applied myself professionally and politically for over 30 years for this political system.” In contrast, Switzerland urgently needs more mosques. “It is not worthy of Switzerland to force Muslims to practice their faith in back alleys.”
Reactions in the SVP were mixed. “Everyone can believe what he wants to,” says General Secretary Martin Baltisser. SVP-National Council member Alfred Heer had a less friendly reaction. Politcal scientist Georg Lutz: “The SVP and Islam stand closer to each other than people suppose. Both advance a conservative worldview.”
With all due respect, I disagree with Lutz’ position. Muslims tend to have political attitudes that are similar to the social teaching of the Catholic Church: “progressive” on economic, environmental, and foreign policy issues, while being “conservative” on sexual ethics. But, a more accurate approach would be to say that Catholics and Muslims frequently do not fit within the stereotypical left/right divide.
If anything, I would say that both Catholicism and Islam are more to the Left. The Right emphasizes particularity (whether the micro-particularity of capitalist individualism or the macro-particularity of nationalism). The Left, on the other hand, tends to stress universality. A balanced political position will address both universality (we’re all members of the same species living on the same planet) and particularity (we are shaped and live in particular communities that have their own traditions, political needs, and strengths and weaknesses). How one falls on the left/right spectrum (assuming such a spectrum exists) would be a function of his or her relative stress on universality vs particularity. Since both Catholicism and Islam (along with other great world religions) say that what unites human beings is more important than what divides them, their fundamental tendency is somewhat to the Left (IMHO).
Anyway, there’s a sidebar item about an SVP politician trying to frame Streich’s conversion as a national security risk, implying that all Muslims in Western militaries are like the lone nut gunman at Fort Hood. (Ironically, in doing so he confirms Streich’s allegation that the SVP’s minaret ban is a “witch hunt” against Muslims). Here’s the piece:
Alfred Heer: Anxiety over the convert Daniel Streich?
Because Daniel Streich converted to Islam when he was an active professional member of the armed forces leads certain politicians to think: “That could be a security risk for the country. We’ve just seen what happened in the USA,” says SVP-National Council member Alfred Heer, referring to the shooting spree of a Muslim military psychiatrist at Fort Hood. Army spokesperson Christopher Brunner responded, “That is an absurd accusation.” The Swiss military is neutral on religious affiliations. Brunner: “it is totally irrelevant which religions our personnel belong to.” Performance, not belief, is what matters.
Whether Switzerland remains true to its democratic heritage, or follows the paranoia that feeds the extremism that devastated Europe in the 30’s and 40’s, depends on whether its citizens, in the long run, will think like Brunner or Heer. As for myself, I hope that some day I can see the Swiss Alps again without being harassed for my Islamic faith. Man denkt, Gott lenkt.
Thanks.
The whole story about legally restricting mosques seems amazing to me. Because here in Toronto, my street has a synagogue, a mosque, and a Buddhist temple side-by-side on the west side of the road. I can’t imagine a public campaign to restrict one of these buildings. The presumption of agitating to restrict somebody else’s place of worship would, I think, astound my neighbors.
Sorry Brian, it is the minaret, not the mosque that they are not allowing.
I do not know why , people love their church bells. I found myself saying that they bothered me every hour day and night, and the villagers protested that it was part of their life etc. I could understand that when they didn’t have watches, the bell was their lunch break, getting to work and out, apart of somebody died or was born. They love them and they defend them while it looks a bit backward to us.
So, they do not accept another bell tower, even if these ones would be silent , as it is now. Maybe all the Europeans think like that but they do not dare to say.
From the deep country in France, susana
Hi Susana. What I meant was I couldn’t imagine Torontonians going public to demand controls on what a synagogue, mosque, or Buddhist temple can built on their property. For example, the Buddhist temple down the street has a large statue of Kwan Yin, the goddess of universal compassion. How would it be if I got a petition going to demand they take it away, because I see this beautiful figure as an idol, and feel it’s offensive to me?
Susana is right to point out that it is the minaret that the vote went against.
To be honest, I believe that this is just the tip of an iceberg – and certainly not entirely for reasons of xenophobia – that’s too simplistic and convenient an explanation.
Many Europeans – religious and non-religious alike (Muslims included) – are growing heartily sick of public displays of collective religiosity of any kind, as well as of religious privilege proffered to essentially self-appointed ‘leaders’ of religious populations. Belligerent religious misuse of recent rights legislation comes to mind also in this regard.
Many Muslims in Britain feel thoroughly unrepresented by the so-called ‘Muslim Council of Britain’, for many British Jews the ‘Big Chief Rabbi’ is a bit of a joke, and for many Western European Catholics the Vatican may as well be on another planet (some probably wish it was!).
The fact that a muezzin shouting through a loudspeaker in Arabic is historically culturally alien to Switzerland made it an easy target for rightwingers, but to put it all down to xenophobia is to slip into denial about the realities on the ground in Europe. Many Muslims (more than would dare say so publicly) don’t want minarets or sharia or any of the trappings of Islam to invade what ought to be secular public space.
Banning a minaret is like banning a church spire or tower. It is incidental to religion and my ancestors, who were 16th-century religious refugees,who would have been accepted only in the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania and the Ottoman Turkish Empire, got along without one.
Nevertheless, it is an unnecessary and indefensible error to ban it, even if few Muslims in Switzerland (or elsewhere in the West) are members of mosques which have a minaret, because it is, and was meant to be, an example of religious bigotry, which all decent people, regardless of their beliefs, should condemn.
Edward R. Brandt:
“an example of religious bigotry, which all decent people, regardless of their beliefs, should condemn”
I trust that you would adopt the same attitude towards the Koran’s position on violence against women, then?
How much tolerance should we show towards INtolerance?
dear mr. Rob Fox
for your kind information holy koran (quran) which was revealed on the last prophet (in other ways islam) has given rights to the women as per their dignity first time visit the islamic websites likes islamweb.net, backtoislam.com,muslimbridges.org, nooremadinah.net, and many more or read the books i can mail u cntct at sagir7867@gmail. com after reading these u will also think to embrass islam as my forfathers did.
what the concept of rights of women in western world is only fullfilling the sex desires as the in ur world rights of women means nudity an sx toys …………………
Mr. Qadri Sagir
I am a Muslim and request you that you do not have to be disrespectful while presenting your point of. If you do not agree with somebody be kind in your expression. Our prophet embodied grace, forgiveness, love and respect. If you will follow his shinbing example you will win friends rather then antagonise people. That is Islam was spread in India and other places. I am a humble person and I do not want to criticise you. Please take my words in the spirit I have written. May Allah be mercifull to you. Regards
hey dude, how the hell did ya know that quran instruct men to insult and violate women, our neighbour adors his wife like she’s a saint and he’s a muslim,
your kinda people should be isolated, cause from the way of your speach you’re a BUSH,
by the way i’m a jew……
Dear Mr. Rob Fox,
Please be informed that you are very wrong about your perception of the Quran advocating Violence against women.
I request you to tell me where in the Quran does it say that violence against women is permissible.
Please do not make assumptions from what you hear or see in the news because the news is always made up by twisting the facts.
On the contarary the Quran and Islam hold the women in the highest regard.
You do not have to take my word for it, please study for yourself, the Quran & the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in this regard.
Please Google up “Womens rights in Islam” you will be amazed to see the rights Islam gives to women,
I remember a person who, like you, thought that Islam teaches violence against women, after he read the facts, said : It seems in Islam the women have all the rights!!!
There are also very great & famous (non-muslim) people who have rated Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as the greatest men of all times.
You can google also up “What people say about Muhammad” and learn what greats like Bernard Shaw, Mahatma Gandhi, Alphonse La Martaine and many others have said about him.
Here are some excerpts for example :
Sir George Bernard Shaw in ‘The Genuine Islam,’ Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.
“If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam.”
“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him – the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity.”
“I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”
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Michael Hart in ‘The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,’ New York, 1978.
My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. …It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. …It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history………
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Arthur Glyn Leonard in ‘Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values’
It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad’s deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration…..
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W. Montgomery Watt in ‘Muhammad at Mecca,’ Oxford, 1953.
His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad…. Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.
——————————————————————————————————————————–
Washington Irving ‘Mahomet and His Successors’
He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source.
In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints.
His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family.
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Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in ‘Young India,’1924.
I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind…. I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet’s biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.
————————————————————————————————————————————-
I am sure you will change your opinion after learning the truth.
If you need any assistance in this regard please feel free to write to me at nhmeer@hotmail.com.
Best Regards,
Nadeem.
Nadeem,
Endless quotes from the credulous and ill-informed prove nothing.
Koran, Surah 4:34: “Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.”
In short, if women won’t obey men, then beat them up.
For more illuminating insights into the unexpurgated content of the Koran, see also: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html
Best Regards,
Rob Fox
its ur assumption to beat the woman if they show disobidient to you, you should conult the http://www.islamqa.com for facts
dont suppose anything from yourself
INSHALLAH you will be muslim verysoon
Perhaps I should have said – in fairness – that the vast majority of Muslims, Christians and Jews are very much nicer and more decent than their respective religious texts.
Nevertheless, a very big problem remains: the violence committed, commanded and condoned by the god characters in the Tanakh, the New Testament and the Koran is far from negligible and is daily cited as sanction for more mayhem and murder somewhere in the world.
Peace unto you Rob,
In response to your second last post, I would cite this lecture by a prominent Muslim scholar, Hamza Yusuf. I think it nicely addresses the misconception you have and clarifies the verse. Remember, the Quran was revealed in Arabic, and hence, in order to understand it, you have to go back to the Arabic linguistics. Unfortunately, translating it in other languages sometimes loses the effect or gives the wrong impression. This verse is one case in point. The lecture is around 26 min long so I hope that you have the patience to listen through for it would be appreciated if you sincerely tried to understand Islam before vilifying its teachings in public space:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDEKJDgXO-U
Best wishes.
Fareeha,
“understand Islam before vilifying its teachings in public space”
I am curious to understand – why does quoting the Koran constitute “vilifying its teachings in public space”?
Please clarify for us – how would YOU translate Koran, Surah 4:34: “As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.”?
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-4-34-shafaat.html
Ans
Verbose later interpetations do not constitute a translation of the text in question. Your response was inadequate.
Please clarify for us – how would YOU translate Koran, Surah 4:34: “As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.”?
Rob, to discuss this we have to read the verse from the beginning, which says:
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) and refuse to sleep with them, (and finally) hit them. But if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allâh is Ever Most High, Most Great”[Al-Qur’an 4:34]
1. The meaning of the wordIn Arabic the word is “Idrebohonna”, originates from the verb “Daraba”, it should be translated as “hit”, just “hit” …And when some translators translate the word in English, some translated it as “beat” and once a translator translated it as “scourge” …”Scourge” is like taking a whip and getting out here and then bom bam bam !!!!The verse referred in question neither permits violence against women nor condones it. The word “beating” or “hitting” used in the verse, but it does not mean “physical abuse”.
2. If the man had to, how should it be doneThe Prophet explained it by “dharban ghayra mubarrih” which means “a light tap that leaves no mark”. He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by a Siwak/Meswak (tooth stick), which is now in the size of a toothbrush.In a clear Hadith in regard of that verse and that particular word, the prophet took a tooth stick, which is Meswak / Sewak, no bigger than a toothbrush today, and he showed it and said: “this is how you do it”, and he tapped himself …And that is the meaning of it, it means a tap, and that’s all it can mean, because that’s what the prophet said it means, nothing more.
3. Beating wives in IslamTo confirm the above concept, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” ( Reported by Al-Bukhari)
In another hadith, he is also reported to have said, “Do not beat the female servants of Allah.”Also it is clearly stated in this verse that men might only beat their wives in the case of “Nushooz” or disobedience. In fact, Allah Almighty has allowed beating wives as the last resort for husbands, a man should warn his wife first, and if she is still stubborn, then he may stop sleeping with her (without leaving the bed), and then if she is still disobeying him then he might hit her in the manner described by the prophet.
4. The marital relationship in IslamSurely Islam stands for excellent relations between husbands and wives. Islam also calls upon husbands to treat their wives in a good and humane manner. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) calls upon husbands to be nice, kind, and friendly to their wives. He declared in one of his hadiths that the best among you are those who are kind and nice to their wives.
5. The prophet’s marital lifeFurthermore, the prophet’s last message was a call upon husbands to be kind and nice to their wives. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) himself was a wonderful, kind, tolerant, and nice husband. He never shouted at or hurt any of his wives, nor did he hit any of them despite the mistakes committed by some of them.
6. The last resortMoreover, the hitting was stated in the said verse as a last resort, meaning it is forbidden for a husband to begin the process by hitting, before counseling and abandoning her in bed. He has to exhaust all types of counseling and abandoning before resorting to hitting.
7. The prophet’s instructions about womenWomen must be respected and loved as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) declared about the treatment of women, “Only the good and nice people respect them and only the low and the bad people humiliate them.”
8. Women rights …It’s a beautiful verse, it starts showing the rights of women. It says that men, not people, men in particular are the protectors and the providers for the women …Meaning that men have to go to work to protect these ladies and feed them and cloth them and care for them, and women have to do nothing when it comes to making any money …And when it comes to making any money, women get to keep it ALL for them-selves…Meaning the man have to pay all the bills, house rent, electricity, gas, water, etc.,All the expenses of the house are the responsibility of the man …Also the protection of the women ….Because 14 centuries ago, men thought that they could take things away from women when they marry them …But the woman doesn’t have to worry about that kind of thing if she inherits, she keeps it all, if she has wealth, it’s all hers, if she makes any money, it’s all hers …And what percentage does a woman has to contribute to house-hold expenses … NOTHING.So a woman can keep whatever she has, gets or inherits, and still make the man pay for all her expenses … Isn’t that liberation??
9. ConclusionWife beating anytime and for any reason is prohibited in Islam…
Allah says in the Holy Qur’an:
“Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them…” [Al-Qur’an 2:231]
In this verse Allah forbids husbands from keeping their wives with the intention of harming them.
Also Qur’an states that if life has become impossible and unbearable between husband and wife, they should go separate peacefully:
“If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband’s part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men’s souls are swayed by greed. But if you do well and practice self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that you do.”[Al-Qur’an 4: 128]
Male dominance- even if it wasn’t physically abusive- is not allowed in Islam, for it will eventually threaten the marriage and result in a divorce.Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) ordered Muslim husbands to accept their wives as they are, treat them kindly and equally; according to the following hadith narrated by Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri:
“I went to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food as what you have for yourself, and clothe them as you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.”Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) ordered Muslim wives not to provoke their husbands allowing them to lose their tempers and so beat them, he (PBUH) also advised Muslim husbands not to over react with their wives, for this provokes the wife to disobey her husband and thus giving husbands the right to beat them (but again not harsh beating).
Brutally beating the wives and causing bruises and damages to their bodies is clearly prohibited in Islam. And because Islam gives his respect to dignity of the individual, Prophet Mohammad forbad striking on the face for anyone, even slaves, not just for wives, because it is mere humiliation.
Hope this helps you understand better.
Altaf
Thank you for taking the time to respond so exhaustively.
Frankly, though, I think the plain sense of the words speak loudly enough for themselves.
I don’t doubt that some Muslims do interpret the Koran & Hadith more benignly than the plain sense would suggest, however the ever-growing, sickening litany of mutilated, murdered and dismembered women in attacks and “honour killings” in my own country alone by men who “just happen to be Muslim” also speaks loudly for itself.
And that’s not even beginning to address the harrowing fates of so many women in Muslim-majority nations.
see, for example, Women Living Under Muslim Laws: http://www.wluml.org/
When I was a Christian, I often just could not “see” the destructive implications of the plain sense of Christian “Holy Scripture” – I was so familiar with ameliorating interpretations of the offensive texts in question.
Even after I had abandoned completely the belief in a (more-or-less) literally true Bible, I still had a sentimental attachment to an idealized Jesus of Nazareth, and I still dearly wanted to believe that SOME form of Christianity could be benign, even if not literally true.
It took a number of spiritual “slaps in the face” to make me wake up to the fact that Christianity is neither benign nor true – that it is a poisoned chalice that has contained some very destructive elements right from its inception: namely, its anti-Judaism, misogyny, and the violence attributed to God in the Bible – especially apocalyptic violence.
I chose to eschew all orthodox Christian theologies because I could no longer collude with what I believed to be slander of God, and destructive beliefs and practices.
Thanks chiefly to the courageous efforts of the atheists, agnostics, deists, panentheists, pantheists, Jews, and other non-Christian dissenters of the 18th and 19th centuries, I could do this with impunity – if not without much mental anguish.
Muslims are, unfortunately, not yet in this position. ALL Muslim sects prescribe the “death penalty” (i.e. murder) of those who choose to come to their senses and eschew Islamic belief and practice. And those who do so live with constant threats to their wellbeing and very lives.
see: http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/apostasy-from-islam/
If this were a recently “revealed” religion, we would have no hesitation in calling it a Destructive Cult.
So while I have a great deal of sympathy for those who feel trapped, and cannot safely leave Islam, I can only say to Muslims of intelligence: please quit wasting your faculties and your time trying to defend the violent and indefensible and ask yourself, does the Koran honour the Creator, or does it slander the Creator?
Is the Koran worse than the Bible? Probably not – but it is no better either.
We ALL have a responsibility to ask ourselves exactly what it is that we are colluding with.
“I don’t doubt that some Muslims do interpret the Koran & Hadith more benignly than the plain sense would suggest, however the ever-growing, sickening litany of mutilated, murdered and dismembered women in attacks and “honour killings” in my own country alone by men who “just happen to be Muslim” also speaks loudly for itself.”
You know, you’re entire right.
I don’t doubt that the missionary movements of the past of slaying anyone who wouldn’t convert to Christianity speaks for itself.
I don’t doubt that the thousands of people who died in the 22 days of Dec 27-Jan 18 in the Gaza strip so that Zionists could have their way speaks loudly for all Jews in the world.
In fact, I don’t doubt that the KKK crews that killed and tortured countless minorities only 40 years back speak very loudly for all white people in America.
As for reading the words as they are, you’d have to read them in Arabic, since the Qur’an isn’t an English book. I don’t have to apologize on behalf of my perfect religion because you’re too ignorant and incapable of understanding what a translation is.
Good day.
dear mr. rob
the link you have given are actually of the websites which are created by some of the Christians/Jews/Hindus on the name of Islam and on the name of a Muslim i have visited some of the such sites and found that those were wrong interpreting Islam and were not form Muslims. when i oredered a book from such a website which was named on the holy quran what i recieved was a christian litrature from newzealand which shows that how much lie such websites and people speak which confirmed the truth of islam as no muslim can ever speak lie or abusive language about any of the prophets knowingly.
hi Rob,
Satisfy yourself, read the Quran/Koran completely
once and for all. If the reading is continuous
then the meaning is coherent and meaningful.
We Muslims, are also advice to read it continuously
till the end of the text at least once in a life time.
Taking part here and there in topsy turvy manner
is not encourage. Best of luck in seeking the truth.
Time is still there for us, until that last moment.
Till we passby again. Live long and prosper.
In short some Westerners are hyprocites. I am a citizen in UK and have witnessed how women have treated and abused not only within family life and society. Before you continue to judge other faiths look in you back yard.
Allah (God) via His final revelation has applied Islam fto provide ull proctection and rights toward females. Dont judge Islam as some prcationers may not have the fullest understanding of its jurisprudence when trying to apply it.
Rob,
So what do you believe in exactly? After your spiritual journey, what have you concluded? Do you believe in the ONE GOD? And if so, do you believe He sent us guidelines in the form of religion?
Yes. That text is from the Quran. A translation of that word is “walk away” as well.
Quran asks Muslims to follow the Prophet’s example.
Prophet never hit anyone ever in his life.
So walk away if you cannot handle it.
peace
All I will say about the women and Islam discussion is that violence against women does sicken me and I believe it sickens all Muslims and all people of good conscience. There are a lot of atrocities committed and they are highly occurring in nations with primarily Muslim populations, but that’s a reflection of those people and not a reflection of Islam.
Said, may Allah bless him and grant him salvation: “… if the States and the Secretariat after prize asset and the Zakat and obey a man fond of his wife, mother Weber Oak جفا friend and his father and voices were raised in the mosques, was the leader of the folk Orzlhm It was the tribe, Akram Vasaghm fear evil men and drinking alcohol Silk and unambiguous and took musical instruments and singing slave women, and another curse of this nation first, then wind Fleurtqbwa red or a deformity and the following verses taken as significant spare and follows.Besides,The Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and peace be upon him,” Be merciful ,you will be mercied, and forgive, God forgive you, and woe toSuppression of say and talks, and Will, who are determined to insist on what they did and they know .” Ratified by the Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and peace.and The Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and peace be upon him,”Three do not talk to God on the Day of Resurrection, and does not recommend and is not seen them, and to them a painful punishment: Adultery old man and the king a liar, and arrogant proud of himslef breadwinner.”Ratified by the Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and peace.The Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and peace be upon him,” Not so good when the worshiper’s faith and beliefuntil he corrects his heart, and do not correct the heart to correct his tongue, and does not enter Paradise until he secuires his neighbour of his rabish and what is a like of gossip.” Ratified by the Messenger of Allah may Allah bless him and peace.all this and more prove to the whole world that Islam is the religion of tolerance and what can one call for is that you search the Islam itslef Qura’an and Sonna
God bless you all
حبيبي ماجدي عامر، يبدو أنك استخدمت مترجما آليا للتعبير عن أفكارك هذه بالأنكليزية ـ شكر الله سعيك، لكن هذه الخدمات عامة تكون تافهة جدا وقلما تنتج شيئا معقولا قط في اللغة المترجم إليها، ومع اللأسف كان كذا مع ما قصدت إلى بيانه، فعليك – بارك الله فيك – أن تستعين بأحد من أصدقائك له خبرة بالإنكليزية عندما تريد المشاركة في مثل هذا الموقع.
(Just pointing out to Magdi that online translation services leave a lot to be desired.)
Back to the specific issue of minarets, it’s worth keeping in mind that they’re virtually all ceremonial nowadays: in the West, the vast majority of mosques don’t have the adhan (the call to prayer) amplified so it’s audible outside (that type of thing would obviously require city council permission); and in the East it’s mostly done using loudspeakers nowadays. Minarets, therefore, are overwhelmingly silent, and so banning them amounts purely to intolerance towards a piece of cultural architecture.
Rob: if you think it’s justified to discriminate against a faith community in how they construct their place of worship because of disagreements you have with statements in their historic religious texts, how far and fairly are you willing to apply this? Search well enough and you’ll find things in virtually all religious texts that would today be considered sexist, intolerant, and otherwise unsavory to the modern mind – and Christianity and Judaism are clearly no exception. Should church towers and steeples also then be banned? And why on earth should they?
@ Rob Fox
Hello Mr fox,
I got the impression that you,and many other non Moslems, think that beating women by Moslem men,not only condoned,but it is the norm of their society.This clearly shows how the lack of understanding and ignorance fueled by bigotry ,can put a cloud on the ability to see the complete picture.
Look Mr fox, I’ll try to give a small example so that you may rethink the whole issue.Lets say ,hypothetically speaking,and God forbid, that you’re A Moslem man and married to my sister and one day I hear that you’re beating her.Not only that I would kick the living $hit out of you ,and make you sit on a bottle, but I’d probably drag your father and do the same to him….I hope you got the picture 🙂
daer mr. ghazi
please behave like a muslim a islam never permited to use abusive language
Ghazi,
Thank you for your illuminating insight into the true condition of the Mohammedan mind.
S. Chowdhury
“if you think it’s justified to discriminate against a faith community in how they construct their place of worship because of disagreements you have with statements in their historic religious texts, how far and fairly are you willing to apply this? Search well enough and you’ll find things in virtually all religious texts that would today be considered sexist, intolerant, and otherwise unsavory to the modern mind – and Christianity and Judaism are clearly no exception. Should church towers and steeples also then be banned? And why on earth should they?”
I can only refer you, again, to my earlier statement:
ALL Muslim sects prescribe the “death penalty” (i.e. murder) of those who choose to come to their senses and eschew Islamic belief and practice. And those who do so live with constant threats to their wellbeing and very lives.
If this were a recently “revealed” religion, we would have no hesitation in calling it a Destructive Cult
Islam ALONE demands the murder of those who choose to eschew it. This is a contemporary fact – not a historical artifact.
This is what makes it different from the other major religions.
It is NOT discrimination to suppress the growth of a murderous, destructive cult.
Who is Muslim
The word “Muslim” means one who submits to the will of God, regardless of their race, nationality or ethnic background. Being a Muslim entails wilful submission and active obedience to God, and living in accordance with His message. Some people mistakenly believe that Islam is just a religion for Arabs, but nothing could be further from the truth. Not only are there converts to Islam in every corner of the world, especially in England and America, but by taking a look at the Muslim World from Bosnia to Nigeria, and from Indonesia to Morocco, one can clearly see that Muslims come from many various races, ethnic groups and nationalities. It is also interesting to note that in actuality, more than 80% of all Muslims are not Arabs – there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in the whole Arab World! So, though even though it is true that most Arabs are Muslims, the large majority of Muslims are not Arabs. However, anyone who submits completely to God and worships Him alone is a Muslim.
Continuity of the Message of All The Prophets of God Almighty
Islam is not a new religion because “submission to the will of God”, i.e. Islam, has always been the only acceptable religion in the sight of God. For this reason, Islam is the true “natural religion”, and it is the same eternal message revealed through the ages to all of God’s prophets and messengers. Muslims believe that all of God’s prophets, which include Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, brought the same message of Pure Monotheism. For this reason, the Prophet Muhammad was not the founder of a new religion, as many people mistakenly think, but he was the final Prophet of Islam. By revealing His final message to Muhammad, which is an eternal and universal message for all of mankind, God finally fulfilled the covenant that He made with Abraham, who was one of the earliest and greatest prophets.
Sufficient is it to say that the way of Islam is the same as the way of the prophet Abraham, because both the Bible and the Quran portray Abraham as a towering example of someone who submitted himself completely to God and worshipped Him without intermediaries. Once this is realized, it should be clear that Islam has the most continuous and universal message of any religion, because all prophets and messengers were “Muslims”, i.e. those who submitted to God’s will, and they preached “Islam”, i.e. submission to the will of Almighty God.
The Oneness of God
The foundation of the Islamic faith is belief in the Oneness of Almighty God – the God of Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus. Islam teaches that a pure belief in One God is intuitive in human beings and thus fulfils the natural inclination of the soul. As such, Islam’s concept of God is straightforward, unambiguous and easy to understand. Islam teaches that the hearts, minds and souls of human beings are fitting receptacles for clear divine revelation, and that God’s revelations to man are not clouded by self-contradictory mysteries or irrational ideas. As such, Islam teaches that even though God cannot be fully comprehended and grasped by our finite human minds, He also does not expect us to accept absurd or demonstrably false beliefs about Him.
According to the teachings of Islam, Almighty God is absolutely One and His Oneness should never be compromised by associating partners with Him – neither in worship nor in belief. Due to this, Muslims are required to maintain a direct relationship with God, and therefore all intermediaries are absolutely forbidden. From the Islamic standpoint, believing in the Oneness of God means to realize that all prayer and worship should be exclusively for God, and that He alone deserves such titles as “Lord” and “Saviour”. Some religions, even though they believe in “One God”, do not make all of their worship and prayers for Him alone. Also, they also give the title of “Lord” to beings that are not All-Knowing, All-Powerful and Un-Changing – even according to their own scriptures. Suffice it to say that according to Islam, it is not enough that people believe that “God is One”, but they must actualize this belief by proper conduct.
In short, in the Islamic concept of God, which is completely based on Divine Revelation, there is no ambiguity in divinity – God is God and man is man. Since God is the only Creator and continual Sustainer of the Universe, He is transcendent above His creation – the Creator and the creature never mix. Islam teaches that God has a unique nature and that He is free from gender, human weaknesses and beyond anything which human beings can imagine. The Quran teaches that the signs and proofs of God’s wisdom, power and existence are evident in the world around us. As such, God calls on man to ponder over the creation in order to build a better understanding of his Creator. Muslims believe that God is Loving, Compassionate and Merciful, and that He is concerned with the daily affairs of human beings. In this, Islam strikes a unique balance between false religious and philosophical extremes. Some religions and philosophies portray God as just an impersonal “Higher Power” who is uninterested, or unaware, of the life of each individual human. Other religions tend to give God human qualities and teach that He is present in His creation, by being incarnate in someone, something – or even everything. In Islam, however, Almighty God has clarified the truth by letting mankind know that He is “Compassionate”, “Merciful”, “Loving” and the “Answerer of Prayers”. But He as also emphasized strongly that “there is nothing like unto Him”, and that He is high above time, space and His creation. Finally, it should be mentioned that the God that Muslims worship is the same God that Jews and Christians worship – because there is only one God.
A Big Mistake
It is unfortunate that some people mistakenly believe that Muslims worship a different God than Jews and Christians, and that “Allah” is just the “god of the Arabs”. While word Allah is also used by Arabs Cristian . Last words of Jesus waere ” Ilahi Ilahi Lima sabaqtani” It means O my God O My God why left me”. Word Ilah is rood word of Allah. This myth, which has been propagated by the enemies of Islam, is completely false since the word “Allah” is simply the Arabic name for Almighty God. It is the same word for God which is used by Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians. However, it should be clarified that even though Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christian, their concept of Him differs somewhat from the beliefs of other religions – mainly because it is based completely on Divine Revelation from God. For example, Muslims reject the Christian belief that God is a Trinity, not only because the Quran rejects it, but also because if this was God’s true nature, He would have clearly revealed it to Abraham, Noah, Jesus and all of the other prophets. Islam was religion of Abraham, Jackob, Isaq, Ishmael. (Peace and blessings of God upon all of them). Because Islam literally means path of submission to God Almighty.
Abrahim,
Thank you for providing us with a very useful example of cult-like thinking – what Lionel Trilling called “the language of non-thought”.
You see, like most of the other Muslim commenters here, your verbose monologue fails to actually address any of the real – very serious – issues that were raised here.
I refer you, again, to my earlier statement:
ALL Muslim sects prescribe the “death penalty” (i.e. murder) of those who choose to come to their senses and eschew Islamic belief and practice. And those who do so live with constant threats to their wellbeing and very lives.
If this were a recently “revealed” religion, we would have no hesitation in calling it a Destructive Cult
Islam ALONE demands the murder of those who choose to eschew it. This is a contemporary fact – not a historical artifact.
This is what makes it different from the other major religions.
It is NOT discrimination to suppress the growth of a murderous, destructive cult.
Is Islam a cult?
Yes.
see: http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50218.htm
Rob it is clear you are not a xenophobe, just an anti-religious bigot? As to the ‘plain sense’ of the words in the verse…well all readings are interpretations, literal translations or otherwise. To claim the so-called ‘literal’ to be primary is an interpretative move. Eschewing that is plain disingenuous, be you a beliver or a bigot.
Rob,
How do you know that death penalty is evil ? If you say so because you think so, then of course there are people who think that it is good, and they have the right to believe so. If you think death penalty is evil because you have a proof from God, then bring that proof so that all humans can follow it. As for Muslims, they believe that God has instituted this, and they follow it. If Muslims were to follow just what they feel on every matter , then they also would have been divided on the issue of death penalty .
Quran 2:213 says:
“Mankind was one single nation, and God sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. God by His Grace guided the Believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For God guided whom He will to a path that is straight.”
By the way, if you are an atheist, you have no way of defining good and evil. If life(that is to say, the splitting of individual cells) came spontaneously and suddenly (since there can’t be something called half-life, life has to be instantaneous) to inanimate things millions of years ago, there should be nothing wrong with stopping that suddenly. None of the laws of science are violated in killing someone.
One occasion when death penalty is allowed in Islam is for killing an innocent person. So basically it’s because God has sanctified human life .As for those who don’t believe, how do they know that life is sacred ? Quran says:
“002.178 O ye who believe! The law of equality(in killing) is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the servant for the servant, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude. This is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.
002.179 In the Law of Equality there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves. “
Peace be unto you Mr. Rob & Everyone else:
Each has expressed their opinion (along with their sources of reference), thank you all for taking the time to explain & argue your points.
However, it seems Mr. Rob has his mind made up, & the same goes for each Muslim who tried to argue with him. So it seems pointless to keep up the argument.
@ Mr. Ghazi:
With all due respect, I’m a Muslim, & I find your use of language & expressions offensive… Please, be more careful with your choice of wording (especially when advocating Islam).
But I do appreciate that you are that protective over your sister (just try to stay clear of resorting to violence). =)
@ Mr. Rob:
I admire the fact that you’re seeking a faith that satisfies you both “Intellectually” as well as “Spiritually”, and I really hope you find the path that suits you best.
Meanwhile, I advise you to take a much deeper look at the “Religions” or the “Faiths” themselves, before you go and condemn that faith or this one.
If you’re keen enough on really understanding a religion (rather than just looking for loop-holes that support your previously-formed-prejudices, I’m sure your views will be more enlightened.
—–
Apologies for my long reply.
Peace be unto you.
To Rob Fox…
i can tell now why god haven’t show you the right way, and why u r suffering to proof that we (Muslims) Are wrong we thank our god for leading us to his light and his religion, and allowed us to taste happiness and peace in our lives, regarding of what multimedia sticks in other peoples minds about us, we’re happy this way.
I Recommend you try to be open minded and discuss more objectively, if Islam wasn’t a great religion then this Member of the Swiss Political Party that Pushed for Minaret Ban wont Convert to Islam after he was one of Islam fighters 🙂 and if you went through all new scientific discoveries they all have been mentioned in Quran/koran thousands of years ago.
I Recommend this site:
http://www.islam-guide.com/f-preface.htm
and try to accept others thinkings and believes, our religion taught us how to respect all other religions.
http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/335-womennorights
You’d have to really become an expert on Islamicn jurisprudence to argue about each of the specific guidelines in Islam. The if and when and how of punishing apostasy, for example, is a lengthy issue I am not knowledgeable enough on to really get into. But what I would say is that not agreeing with any one interpretation of that Islamic jurisprudence is really not enough to assert that Islam is hateful or wrong. Whether or not I can definitively understand a ruling based on Islamic law, on let’s say, abortion, for example, doesn’t change all the philosophical layers that come with the issue. It’s really up to each person to use the tenets and values of Islam to understand and interpret how we should conduct our lives and govern our communities. Islam isn’t a compilation of rules and regulations, it’s a belief in the oneness of God and the prophethood of Muhammad, P.B.U.H. From that, a Muslim can work their way trying to form their opinion on various issues. Every person is allowed to have an opinion and doesn’t have to merely subscribe to one scholar’s thoughts or accept the laws that are being outlined in one community. Islam doesn’t require us to give up our own analysis and feelings and simply adopt a bunch of rules. Even with something much less controversial like eating pork, I am going to use my own brain and look to the Qu’ran and look to the teachings of the Prophet to determine what is allowed and isn’t. No issue is black and white. As for the death penalty for apostates, if you weigh all the Islamic evidence and then decide that yes, that is supported, that’s not a reason to think Islam hateful and without merit. Instead, that might be a reason to then dig deeper into the philosophical reasoning behind it and then decide whether it is, in fact, reasonable or evil. You also have to consider the intention behind everything. If God says a disbeliever will suffer forever in hell, yes, I could believe it. But I also recognize that identifying exactly who the believers and disbelievers are is something only God can do. I can consider myself Muslim, but only God can truly look into my heart, weigh my deeds and my intent to decide whether I am among the real muslims.
You’re not going to agree with everything you come across nor will everything in the Qu’ran be tasteful to you, but that’s not really the point. With an open heart, it has value there and much of it makes a great deal of sense. And there is room for reading between the lines. It’s very important to comprise a complete picture of it before making any total claims.
Every person’s analysis needs to be ongoing. I can accept and believe that you might actually find Islam hateful or bad when all is said and done, even if you read everything. Some peaceful lines might not deter you from some parts that seem rather disturbing to you. But sometimes you need to read it with those other peaceful, philanthropic lines in mind and consider whether or not there could be a greater, gentler intent.
It’s in God’s hands anyway.
Salaam alaikum.
Dear Mr.Rob The Quran That you referred to has a verse that mean “to whom ever want to follow other religion he can you (speaking to his prophet Mohamed ) will not force anyone to follow you but god guide whoever he choose”. Also there was a story about prophet Mohamed PBUH the a man came from the wild part of the Arabia and he was not as civilized (relatively) as the city of Madina people and he entered the Mosque during a prayer That man was not Muslim and he came to learn about Islam and Mohamed he felt the need to urinate so he went to a corner in the mosque and and started urinating inside the mosque The companions of Prophet Mohamed seen him and started to get angry and one of them pulled his sward wanted to kill the man for Urinating in the mosque See what prophet Mohamed did He took his wardrobe and stood in front of the man between him and his companions and told them not to scare him while he is doing his business and let him finish what ever he is doing without fear. when the man finished he found how peaceful the prophet and the teaching of Islam the man pronounced his islam and said may Allah bless me and Mohamed and nobody else then The prophet smiled and said may Allah bless you, me and everybody else.
what i want to say that it’s not about religion it’s about behavior , i’m a muslim guy and i do believe in every word in my book , i read it more than a thousand times and i never found a word that allows me to hurt any body , if there was some wise men welling to put some laws they must not ban the minarets , they must ban bad behaviors , bad behaviors, terrorism , violent , wars , and all other bad things r not related to religion , if it was related so Bosh killed thousands of people and he was Christian , but when i read the book of Christians i never find a word allows people to kill each other , so its not the religion , its another motive , spreading killing and hate among the people , every day i watch TV and keep asking myself the same questions why hate? , why war?, many whys but still no answer to any why , and finally i toled my self that may be one thing can be done , may be one day there will be a law that never call just Muslims or Christians no American or Arab it must just call human , as long as you are a human all must be treated the same the one who do good thing must be rewarded and the one who goes against the law must be punished no matter if he was Muslim , Christian , Jew or any thing else.
Mr. Rob more interested to seek individual muslim
shortcoming in practicing Islam.
Calling Islam a cult clearly shows tresspasses all boundries
and disrespect.of religion. Islam dont need him.
Just forget him and give advice other real truth seekers.
He will even use this simple message to insult Islam!
hahaha his is strange.the more people talk bad about islam,the more become interested in reading about it and when they find out that its totally opposite of what the jewish propoganda machinery is spreading they accept islam as a true religion for ALLAH.
peace
My friend, born a muslim in a muslim state but now want to live as a person with “No religon”.
his question to all muslims that “why there is no freedom of change of religon in islam?” I have no answer for his question.
it begans to change my thoughts and belives too and i started respecting all those reglions more where there is no death threat, where you are allowed to live your own life peacfully by respecting every other persons, community & laws.
he says “WHY WE R MUSLIMS ! JUST BCOZ WE R BORN IN A MUSLIM HOUSE, A CRISTIAN AND OTHERS ARE IN THE SAME WAY”
other wise there is no exceptional beauity or truth that one can attract to a particular religon but in islam cannot leave because of fear of death.
he also says “EVERY ONE IS THIRSTY OF EACH OTHER BLOOD’S BECAUSE OF RELIGON, ALL CLAIMS THAT THEY R RIGHT AND OTHERS ARE WRONG IT SIMPLY MEANS THAT ALL ARE WRONG BUT ONE, WHICH IS THAT ONE?, NO BLIND FAITH JUST USE COMON SENCE”
Note for the moderator:please do not give the email to any one, it can be dangrous in a muslim society.
To the “Enilghtened” Muslim and non-Muslim men and women, I do NOT expect you to read Weber, Iqbal or Ghazzali, but I WOULD expect you to ASK those who know more than you do, before you come online and start typing baseless rhetoric. Verses of the Qur’an are understood through (a) understanding the circumstances of the revelation under discussion; (b) getting to know how the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) applied the legal ruling explicitly or implicitly stated or alluded to in the verse; (c) tracing how the Companions of the Prophet understood and spread the message; and (d) looking at Islamic political history and investigating whether, at a later date, there was a political and social benefit to be gained by a certain strata of the powers-that-be which would gain from an adulteration in the message conveyed in the text. Such an inquiry might seem to be a daunting task, and it CAN be so at times, but it will be a good exercise in helping you appreciate the 1400-year-long history of legal and intellectual activity in Islam.
Qur’an is taken by Muslims to be part of the Knowledge of God, and Prophet Mohammad is taken to be the one who explained it to others. These “others” were the original recepients of the message, the Companions, who understood, internalized, applied and spread the message. Islam does not need a minaret to be complete, but in Switzerland’s case, it becomes an identity issue, and it WILL be politicized, probably by both parties. It doesn’t need to be, so let us take care that we do not add to it.
May Allah guide Rob Fox to the Truth and open his heart and mind to the beauty of the natural religion of mankind, Islam.
It is time you submitted and quashed the voices in your head, the voices of rebellion against your creator.
salam,
To help Rob understand a verse such as this one,
Rob should use other verses that explain this verse, and yet other verses that explain more of those verses.
Rob should also relate to the historical context to analyse the verse, for all verses were revealed in response to an event.
There, Rob will find the justifications and appreciation and understanding.
STAND ALONE TRANSLATION is insufficient to understand God’s logic,
Human logic is shallow,
Rob’s own logic is even shallower,
If Rob really truly wants to know why and how God impose this ruling,
Challenge Him by looking at other verses That support Rob’s argument.
THIS IS GOD’S BOOK RIGHT?
THE BOOK IS HIS LOGIC.
God may shot Himself in the Foot somewhere in His book and Rob and his flock can laugh and villify Him, therefore reduce His religion to a cult.
All of us here are not scholars to explain to you God’s logic and make Rob change his stance.
So enjoy your cult…
being a libral muslim I pray the same for all muslims to open their minds enough to give respect others this is the only way left we can get respect from west.
Its not a matter of pride that a non-muslim becomes muslim, matter of pride is the true contribution of peace in the world and muslims should also avoid to force and teach others to become muslim.
my last request for all muslims residing abroad especially in the western countries to stop dreaming the spread of islam in those countires and follow the laws and customs of that country if not possible get back to your own country. If I were to go in France i would definately follow their rules including no BURQA, if not acceptable to me then no need to go France.
Make your religon respectable from your behaviour & attitude.
“Dua for Rob Fox”, please stop spreading propaganda about Islam to Rob Fox, or any other “unbeliever”. Your faith is not the only one in this world, and your religion is not the only truth. The are countless of other religions and faiths in this planet which ALL state they are the one truth.
Please refrain from trying to convert him or anyone else, who clearly do not wish to join your religion.
Islam is not “the natural religion of all mankind”, nor should you tell anyone to”submit and quash the voices of rebellion against your creator”, because YOUR faith is NOT the only one here.
Trying to silence or convert dissenters truly sounds like fascism, and your whole idea of trying to convert people “to see the truth of Islam” is incredibly offending to me.
Honour and respect, everybody.
Okay – I have read all your comments and discussions…
FYI I am not a Christian; neither have your attempts to convert the reader to Islam succeeded.
Not one of you seems to have been born in Switzerland, a country that since 1291 CE was based on two “Christian churches” reformed or catholic (thus all the church steeples and bells).
Allow me a simple question:
What would your countries’ stance be if a group of immigrants from Switzerland would want to build a church and G-d forbid a church steeple with bells?
MR. FOX.
I DONT BLAME YOU FOR YOUR IGNORANCE IN ISLAM OR CHRISTIANITY. YOU ARE JUST ONE OF THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN INDOCTRINATED BY THE MEDIA AND OTHER ANTI ISLAMIC ELEMENTS ON EARTH.
your claim that islam is THE ONLY faith that commands the death penalty for apostates, just demonstrates your lack of knowlege of the world religions
PLEASE read the bible, in the Book of Deutronomy , chapter 13, verse 6-9..which will make it quite clear as to what the bible’s rule on apostates are..i know this cannot be intellectually contradicted..pls read it..and study Islam with an open mind, not from Fox or Cnn, but from an Imam, a learned muslim, etc…
May God guide you sir. peace.
True Islam is not a threat to anyone but the guilty.
Islam teaches you to obey the law, to look after your neighbour & to respect eveyone…
But if any evil person attacks you & your family…
Defend yourself against them only, not others who are innocent…
SIMPLE !!!
Hay all of Non muslims, we should not comment on that religion about which we do not know, Remember starting from Hazrat Adam(P.B.U.H) and ending on Hazrat Muhammad(P.B.U.H). All are messengers of One God. They brought same message of God. Some times in same period there are so many messengers on the earth.But every messenger told . believe messenger before me,and all other messenger of same period who brought same message..Like Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) and Hazrat aaron(Haroon) (P.B.U.H) both brothers are messenger of God in one period. Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) brought message of God for Bani Israel. but He told to his nation believe One God and all messengers before me.After that Hazrat Jesus(Eisa)(P.B.U.H) came. He told believe One God and all messengers before me. but nation of Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) (Jews)did not believe him.Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) was told by God in old testament, I will raise upon your brotheren a profit(messenger) like you. it was hint that there would be a profit like you upon your bretheren ( not from you )Like Hazrat Muhammad(P.B.U.H), He was from family of Hazrat Ismael(P.B.U.H). But Hazrat Moses(.P.B.U.H) From family of Hazrat Ishaq(P.B.U.H) Brother of Hazrat Ismael(P.B.U.H)..Also Hazrat Jesus was not like Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H)..Hazrat moses (P.B.U.H)was natural born. Hazrat Jesus(P.B.U.H) was born without father. Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) was married. Hazrat Jesus(P.B.U.H) was not married. Hazrat Moses (P.B.U.H)was gived profitship in 40 years . Hazrat Jesus was given profitship announcement, When he was child. Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) had children. Hazrat Jesus(P.B.U.H) was not married. Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) was migrated from his city and then came back as Conquerer (winner). Hazrat Jesus(P.B.U.H) was not migrated and was not succeed. Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) was given holy book with complete laws of all factors of life but Hazrat Jesus(P.B.U.H) was given holy book with not all new laws of all factors of life.Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) was dead naturaly. But Hazrat jesus(P.B.U.H) was not dead naturally. He was lifted up and will come back.So it means which God told in old testament to Hazrat Moses (P.B.U.H)that I WILL RAISE UPON YOUR BROTHEREN A PROFIT LIKE YOU was not HAzrat JEsus(P.B.U.H). He was Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H). Becaus what happened to Hazrat Moses(P.B.U.H) Same things happened to Hazrat MUhammad(P.B.U.H).Natural born, 40 years age profitship, but hint given befoe in old testament and new testament.migrated, married,children came back to city as conquerer(winner). given holy book with new laws of all life factors.As jews do not believe Hazrat jesus(P.B.U.H).But Christians belive all messengers Hazrat Jesus(P.B.U.H)and before them. Like that christians and jews do not believe Hazrat Muhammad(P.B.U.H).but Muslims believe Hazrat Muhammad(P.B.U.H)and all messengers before him..If any muslim do not believe any messenger of God, He is non believer and will go to Hell.Even He has muslim name…Even in New testament Hazrat Jesus also told in JOHN Chapter 16 ,,I am going apart from you and it is in your advantage If i go apart because If i do not go a new helper will not come, and when He will come He will Convicts the world of sin righteous and judgement.He will not speak his own words, He wil speak what He will Hears from God.,and other place Hazrat Jesus told I will come back and I will not speak this language I will Speak plain language.Also one place Hazrat jesus told in Mathew Chapter 13, you can not divorce your wives,One man stood , he told We will believe but not others people, Hazrat Jesus(P.B.U.H) told this is only for you not for others,,means that law was only for bani israel that nation ,, but not for all nations,,,But Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was told in quran(The last testament) you are blessings for all worlds..and you are last profit (messenger) of God. There will not be any messenger after you. Because this holy book Quran will not change up to the end of world.Hazrat Jesus(P.B.U.H) will come back and will promote islam. He will tell to people ,I did not tell you that a new helper will come why you did not believe Him, He brought the message of GOD what He hears From God…Hazrat Jesus((P.B.U.H)) will not bring new laws and regulations, He will promote islam…In QuranwrittenHazrat Ibrahim
IN QURAN GOD SAYS HAZRAT ABRAHAM (IBRAHIM) (P.B.U.H) FATHER OF PROFITS (MESSENGERS) WAS NOT JEWS NOR CHRISTIAN. HE WAS TRUE MUSLIM. ON EARTH FIRST MUSLIM WAS HAZRAT ADAM(P.B.U.H) WAS FIRST MUSLIM.EVERYONE WHO BELIEVED EVERY MESSENGER DURING HIS PERIOD AND ALL MESSENGERS BEFORE HIM AND FOLLOWED HIM WAS MUSLIM…MUSLIM MEAN BELIEVE ONE GOD, HIS ANGELS, HIS MESSENGERS(BELIEVING ALL WERE HUMANS) AND TO DIE AND RAISE AFTER DEATH AND GOOD FATE AND BAD FATE FROM GOD. LIKE STAND ON ONE LEG IS OUR EFFORT AND WE CAN NOT STAND BY LIFTING TWO LEGS THAT IS OUR FATE. ALL MESSENGERS ARE JUST LIKE CHAIN,,FIRST RING IS HAZRAT ADAM(P.B.U.H) AND LAST RING IS HAZRAT MYHAMMAD(P.B.U.H)..LIKE AMERICA THEIR FIRST PRESIDENT WAS LINCON AND THEN ….MARTIN LUTHAR…JIMMY CARTAR….RAIGAN…BUSH SENIOR…CLINTON…GEORGE W BUSH…NOW OBAMA..ALL BROUGHT SOME NEW LAWS AND SOME AMENDMENTS IN LAWS..IF YOU MAKE NOW AMERICAN ASSEMBLY MAKE NEW LAWS UNDER THE OBAMA GOVERNMENT THAT OBAMA WILL BE PRESIDENT FOR WHOLE HIS LIFE..WHAT AMERICAN WILL DO THEY HAVE TO ADMITT THE LAW..SAME THING HAPPENED GOD GAVE DIFFERENT NATIONS DIFFERENT MESSENGERS.. BUT ALL WERE SENT FROM GOD WITH SAME MESSAGE..BUT WHEN ANY PROFIT MESSENGER MESSAGE WAS CHANGED ,,LIKE NOW A DAYS CHRISTIANS OF THE WORLD THEY DO NOT KNOW THE REAL SCRIPTURE WHICH WAS REVEALED ON HAZRAT JESUS(P.B.U.H)..BECAUSE HOLY BOOK ARE THE WORDS THAT GIVEN BY GOD TO HAZRAT JESUS(P.B.U.H) AND HAZRAT MOSES(P.B.U.H). IN OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT WE CAN FIND THE EVENT HOW HAZRAT JESUS(P.B.U.H) WAS CRUCIFIED..HOW COME THIS EVENT IS IN NEW TESTAMENT. BECAUSE ON WHICH BODY HOLY BOOK IS TO BE REVEALED ACCORDING TO CHRISTIAN HE IS CRUCIFIED . SO HOW THIS EVENT ENTERED IN HOLY BOOK.THIS THE WAY CHRISTIANS AND JEWS THEY DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE REAL SCRIPTURE WHICH WAS REVEALED ON THEIR PROFITS..THEIR HOLY BOOKS ARE MIXED WITH HISTORY EVENTS AND WRITTEN NOW BY HUMANS WITH THEIR SYMPATHIES AND INTERST.SO HOW ANY ONE CAN BECOME TRUE CHRISTIAN AND TRUE JEWS. THATS WHY GOD GAVE THEM HINT IN OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT THAT NEW HELPER MESSENGER WILL COME. AND YOU WILL HAVE TO FOLLOW HIM.THATS WHY GOD REVEALED QURAN LAST TESTAMENT ON HAZRAT MUHAMMAD(P.B.U.H).AND THIS HOLY BOOK IS LEARNT BY HEART BY MILLIONS MUSLIMS SINCE 1400 YEARS, YOU WILL FIND REAL ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE IN ORIGINAL LANGUAGE ARABIC AND WITH TRANSLATION DOWN IN DIFFERENT LANGUAGES. NO BODAY CAN CHANGE IT..CHRISTIANS AND JEWS THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE READING IS TRANSLATION OF WHICH SCRIPTURE..HAZRAT JESUS DID NOT TELL TO HIS NATION YOUN ARE CHRISTIAN, HE TOLD TO BELIEVE THIS,,THERE IS ONE GOD AND I AM SENT BY GOD,,HAZRAT MOSES(P.B.U.H) DID NOT TELL YOU ARE JEWS ,,BECAUSE HE CAME ON NATION BANI ISRAEL HAZRAT JESUS(P.B.U.H) ALSO CAME ON SAME NATION THERE WAS SON OF HAZRAT YAQOOB(P.B.U.H) JUDDAH FROM HIM JEWS NAME CAME…ACTUALLY JEWS SETTLED IN MADINA A CITY OF SAUDIA..THEY WERE KNOWN NEW HELPER WILL COME IN THIS AREA ..AND CHRISTIANS WERE ALSO SETTLED IN MADINA SAME CITY OF SAUDIA,,THEY WERE THINKING NEW PROFIT WILL COME FROM THEIR NATION. AND JEWS WERE THINKING NEW MESSENGER WILL COME FROM THEIR NATION..BUT HE CAME IN MECCA OTHER CITY OF SAUDIA..WHEN HE TOLD TO JEWS BELIEVE HAZRAT JESUS(P.B.U.H).THEY DENY HIM AND WHEN HE TOLD TO CHRISTIANS THAT HAZRAT JESUS(P.B.U.H) WAS ONLY MESSENGER (A MAN) SENT BY GOD. THEY DENY HIM.IN MECCA KAABA WHICH MUSLIM HOLY MOSQUE THAT WAS BUILT BY HAZRAT ABAHAM(IBRAHIM)(P.B.U.H) AND HIS SON HAZRAT ISMAEL(P.B.U.H). HAZRAT ABRAHAM MADE PRAY TO GOD OH GOD PLEASE SEND YOUR ONE MESSENGER FROM THIS NATION OF ARAB MECCA WHO WILL SPEAK YOUR WORDS TO PEOPLE..SO GOD ACCEPTED HIS DOWA THATS WHY HAZRAT MUHAMMAD (P.B.U.H) TOLD I AM DOWA OF HAZRAT ABRAHAM(P.B.U.H) AND ANNUNCIATION( ANNOUNCEMENT) OF HAZRAT JESUS(P.B.U.H)..SO THATS WHY HAZRAT MUHAMMAD(P.B.U.H) IS THE LAST RING OF CHAIN WHERE THE RELIGION OF GOD COMPLETE AND THERE WILL BE NO EXTENSION OF THIS CHAIN.. THIS CHAIN ENDS AT HAZRAT MUHAMMAD(P.B.U.H). AND GOD HIMSELF TOLD IN LAST TESTAMENT QURAN THAT YOU ARE SEAL OF PROFITS MESSENGERS AND YOU ARE THE LAST PROFIT MESSENGER.AND GOD TOLD HIMSELF I AM THE GUARDIAN OF THIS BOOK HOLY QURAN THAT NO BODY CAN CHANGE IT..THAT IS THE PRIDE FOR MUSLIMS THAT THEIR HOLY BOOK IS SAME IN ALL OVER THE WORLD WITH REAL LANGUAGE ARABIC WITH DIFFERENT TRANSLATIONS DOWN.EXCEPT CHRISTIANS AND JEWS THEIR HOLY BOOK IS MIXED ALREADY WITH HISTORY EVENTS AND EVEN AN ORDINARY CHRISTIAN AND JEWS THEY DO NOT KNOW THE REAL SCRIPTURE THAT WAS REVEALED ON THEIR PROFITS IS WHERE…AND ALSO LIKE IF AMERICAN PRESIDENT OBAMA NOW MAKE NEW LAWS IN GOVERNMENT AND IF SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY NO WE WILL OBAY ONLY LINCON LAWS,,SOME WILL SAY WE WILL FOLLOW MARTIN LUTHAR KING LAWS.,,SOME WILL SAY WE WILL FOLLOW ONLY RAIGAN LAWS,,SOME WILL SAY WE WILL FOLLOW ONLY BUSH LAWS,,DO YOU THINK IT IS OK,,NO,NO,NOT AT ALL ALL AMERICANS HAVE TO FOLLOW NOW OBAMA GOVERNMENT LAWS..BECAUSE PEOPLE IN THE PERIOD OF LINCON GOVERNMENT IT WAS MUST FOR THEM TO OBAY LINCON LAWS,,PEOPLE IN THE PERIOD OF LUTHAR KING IT WAS MUST FOR THEM TO OBAY LUTHAR KING GOVERNMENT LAWS. NOW IT IS MUST FOR PEOPLE OF AMERICA TO OBAY OBAMA GOVERNMENT LAWS..LIKE THIS IT IS MUST FOR ALL WORLDS BECAUSE GOD TOLD IN QURAN HAZRAT MYHAMMAD(P.B.U.H), YOU ARE LAST PROFIT AND YOU ARE PROFIT FOR WORLDS AND YOU ARE BLESSING FOR WORLDS, AND YOUR MESSAGE AND LAW IS MUST FOR EVERY ONE TO FOLLOW..
Guys leave rob alone he has his own views about religion if he wants to learn about islam he should read and understand what quran stands for, If he dont want, its his own choice , pleasee get out of this useless arguments
Thanks for your moral support, Titus & Nizar!
I actually think it’s a GOOD thing that the sheer mindlessness, blustering and badgering of many of the Islamic would-be proselytizers is seen for what it is.
The arguments are all “from authority” (of one sort or another), devoid of substance, and frequently based on utterly erroneous assumptions for which they have not a shred of evidence.
The bottom line about Islamic apologists and ALL their window-dressing “dialoguing” activities is ALWAYS this – Extending the Deen of Islam. Submission.
This is a fact.
Just for your info and
To the Swiss ExPat in particular who asked:
“What would your countries’ stance be if a group of immigrants from Switzerland would want to build a church and G-d forbid a church steeple with bells”
First: Switzerland does not have 1st and 2nd class citizens. Once you acquire the citizenship you have all political, human, social and religious rights. Our constitution grants freedom of speech, expression and religion to ALL of its citizens. Maybe you should read first our constitution?
Second: Those predominantly Muslim countries (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, the Maghreb countries) which always had a Christian minority (big or small) have since ever churches WITH steeple and bells. And the bells do toll. They too have Synagogues. Even in Khartoum (Sudan) you find 17 churches (the last time I was there and they still stand).
Third: Even the 100% Muslim countries have since some 40 years churches WITH steeple and bells in order to accommodate the TRANSIT VISITORS (so called ex-pats who stay on a time-limited contract) of Christian faith. They are not even citizens with full rights – they’re just there in transit to make some money. See Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, and the UAE et al as an example. The biggest church in Abu Dhabi is the one built by the Filipino community. Half way through they run out of money – Sheikh Zayed Al Nahyan (the late ruler and President of the UAE) chipped in financially and they could finish building their church.
Fourth: Even in Saudi Arabia you find unofficial places of worship for the transit Christian community. They’re not officially recognized (for political reasons) but 11 of them do exist in Jeddah and Riad. Also Saudi Arabic is the seat of the (rom./cath.) Archbishop for the Arabian Peninsula. But if you want to hang your “argument” on this country – to my information the Vatican does host neither a Synagogue nor a Mosque. (BTW – nor has Israel ever approved the building of new churches or mosques within Israel proper. And no one makes a fuss or a hyped-up issue of this.)
As the saying goes in Switzerland: honnit soit qui mal y pense!
Peace – Salam – Shalom
Just a little afterthought:
It seems to me that those “countries” you had in mind, Swiss ExPat, did not care to wait for a group of immigrants from Switzerland in order to tell or force them to build churches …
Have a good day
hello every body
i just would like 2 give some information about women in quran and after u read this website +use ur maind u wil know which relegion is right and where is the right why . sorry my english is not perfect but beleive me islam is the only right relgeion with prooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooof pleez read this
http://www.ebnmaryam.com/web/modules.php?name=myBooks2&op=listt&cat=7
and now red ur bible pleez pring ut bible and read wht in this website and every thing with prroooof
http://www.evilbible.com/
http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t32135.html
and listen 2 this voice and ask ur self have u ever heard somthing like this befor?!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66izhSasgO4&feature=related
pleeeeeeeez use ur mind 4 all the christian pleeeeeeeeeeeez read and u will know the right wy…..
thanks…
True religion, like our founding principles, requires that the rights of the disbeliever be equally acknowledged with those of the believer. When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow.
the mind must become pure and unruffled, free from opinions, biases and self-centred emotions, for only in this state can there be an awareness of Truth. Those who are earnestly in search of truth are already creating a better world, for the pre-condition for its attainment is purity and an awakening discrimination. Where there is such discrimination and selflessness, the environment begins to change, because it is selfishness which creates a chaotic and cruel world. So the search for Truth is by no means irrelevant to the establishment of a peaceful world. If humanity were to adopt for its motto Satyan nasti paro dharmah, ‘There is No Religion Higher than Truth’, a just and beautiful world would be ensured for all.
May peace and blessings of Allah be up on you all.
Just need to point out what really Nadeem said.
“Muhammed(P.B.A.H) is not anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity”
In my opinion Allah(swt), the Almighty Creator blessed us with:
1) Islam : The way of Mankind Life
2) Prophets : The messengers of Allah to guide people to Islam (Among whom Adam(a),………Jesus Christ(a),……….Muhammed(s) belongs to).
So, I may say “The Almighty GOD is the real “Savior of Humanity”.
Thanks
Shameema
Very interesting post. I added this blog to my bookmarks. Luck is with me today as I have found many great sites. Just before I found stoixima.com.gr, which is a webpage about sports. Thanks
hi from my country~