Comments on: Why Is Liberal Religion So Race And Class Bound? Can Love Break Through?

By: Clint Davis

Clint Davis — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 04:45:28 +0000

Dave, it’s OK, just answer those questions sometime for someone, maybe even for yourself, if you find them valuable. To me, it just looked like y’all were asking the same old questions that really don’t have good answers, or have answers you’ve already given but they didn’t work out so well. I was just thinking of new questions, with answers I know would at least be helpful for me, but that’s all I know about the helpfulness of my questioning.
Stand up for yourselves sometimes though, just like you are. No one else is going to. I love my nerdy white Unitarians with all their classes and coffee, and my feisty black AME ladies who know how to make a believer out of you, and my High WASPy Whiskepalians who, like the AME ladies, also know how to have church, or those sweet little Hindu gals that don’t know quite what to do with this white boy at the temple but graciously feed him and keep him out of trouble. And those awesome, grace-emanating Vietnamese Zen monks I met on the southside, and that grand Japanese lady at the Rissho Kosei Kai temple who questioned us whiteys if forgiveness really was compatible with Buddhism (she really had a point, no kidding!).
Everybody, just be who you are and be the best at it. People will remember you then, and know where to go when they need what you got. The “trick” is, to be so good at it that people really believe they need what you got, but first you have to convince yourself, then convince yourself to act convinced.

By: Marco

Marco — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:29:56 +0000

Hi again: This is off-topic, but I really do not know where to address this on the Tikkun site, if anywhere. And I felt it was important enough that it might interest some people here.

On the primordial topic of what constitute true peace between people, I have few things to say because it is so elusive in daily life and internationally. But I came across an interview ,and a work of Art yesterday that I found most inspiring in this regard, and I would like to share them with you:
The first is an interview that a Jewish historian Avi Shlaim did with King Hussein of Jordan, and that has been published in Shlaim’s new book “Israel and Palestine”. I found Hussein’s words very empathetic towards Israelis and all people really. There was a decency and kindness to his words which really moved me. Please check this out, you will not be dissapointed. Perhaps Tikkun can re-print the interview.
The second is an Israeli film called “The Band’s Visit” (“Bikur ar-Tizmoret”) by Eran Kolirin , about the visit of an Egyptian Army fanfare band to Israel, that gets lost at an Israeli border town, must sleep the night there, are put up by some Israelis (somewhat warily !), chat , exchange confidences, and leave with some genuine friendship for each other. It is very moving. The Arab music that played at the end is sublime. Wow. I hope you all will check out this beautiful touching movie by a great Israeli artist.

Marco

By: Marco

Marco — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:03:59 +0000

Well , Dave, whatever you did to come off with a certain sincere warmth and decency to me, it worked. As opposed to others here who tried and failed, because they don’t walk their “spiritual” talk enough (like most shallow “spiritual” people). Some may retort, what about you , Marco, are you any better? Well, in one way: I don’t preach and profess love and compassion and awe of the bloody universe ad nauseam, I am courteous and kind to those who are kind and decent with me, BUT I openly admit proudly that I would wreek revenge and hurt on anyone who first hurt me (unlike the so-called pacifists or spiritual types who can apparently keep cool and “loving”while they are being insulted, abused and, pummelled for no good reason. These latter lie and are hypocrites! ). I profess and act upon common run-of-the -mill prudence and courtesy. If I , however, hurt, another for no good reason, I can apologise, but I don’t continually preach forgivenesss as some do here ad nauseam, little saints that they are.. So expectations from me as to extra loving-kindness beyond the daily routine would be low so I could not be accused of hypocrisy.

MY credo: “We are non-violent with those who are non-violent with us, but we are NOT non-violent with those who are violent with us” Malcolm X Right on, Malcolm!

Marco

By: Dave Belden

Dave Belden — Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:10:47 +0000

Clint, I think you ask tremendously deep questions and I am sitting here at the Tikkun office with a mountain of things to do wishing I could get deeply into thinking about them, but I know that I can’t yet. I am hoping others may do.

January, I didn’t really follow why you questioned Clint’s sincerity, though I do think that if we were all sitting in a room together we could sooner or later come to understand why our formulations do, or don’t, push each other’s buttons. In this kind of online exchange it’s much harder.

Marco, I was very happy to read your last comment. I have a tendency to react defensively when I feel criticized, and have become aware how often that is counterproductive. While in person I might go straight to defensiveness and counterattack, online if I start writing that way I at least have a chance to look at my words before I hit ‘submit comment’ and to realize that I am just being reactive again, and to wonder if I could try instead to understand more where the other person is coming from.

By: Clint Davis

Clint Davis — Mon, 15 Mar 2010 05:22:29 +0000

All of my questions are an entirely sincere train of thought, and it is frustrating to me that one would rather attack me than actually answer my inquiries. I want to find a place in the kinds of communities here described, but these are the kinds of questions I feel I need answered before I could ever say yes, because the obligations of religious community are very very serious, and I take them so seriously that I will refrain from making them until I know I fit. Why does that make me a person in need of some kind of healing–the assumption is that I am in some way sick–or some kind of internet troll who delights in attacking others?
“That trivializes the religious practices of others.” No it doesn’t, in making the disputed statement, I really do, and very sincerely and with an open heart, want an answer as to why one would go to church if one just wants to feel good, when there is a whole world full of other, less stereotypically “boring” options for feeling good. I really do want to know, from a liberal religious point of view, what kind of “feeling good” does church give, that somewhere else doesn’t?
Look, when I was in ministry discernment, I was asked very difficult questions along the same lines as the ones I was asking above, and they were theological questions, ecclesiological questions, questions about my assumptions concerning the various kinds of ministry, about faith and the religious life, one after another, for months on end. I enjoyed being challenged and given the opportunity to fine-tune my thinking and answer people who obviously cared a great deal about me, about the church, and about religion in general. I am giving the topic of Why Liberal Church, And How? the same respect as was given me, as I learned from people I loved. If I had not a care for this at all, I wouldn’t have bothered to comment. I have hardcore, Far Right Latin Rite Catholics to harass about female servers and vernacular hymns, if I want to get into a good fight about something I am more than knowledgeable enough to fight about :-)

By: January

January — Mon, 15 Mar 2010 01:15:18 +0000

My reply was to the Clint Davis who wrote, “…what does Unitarianism and Universalism require? If it requires nothing religious, just feeling good, why even go to church?” That trivializes the religious practices of others.

Consequently when such is followed by a pious admonition to “love,” in the midst of a harangue loosely disguised by questions that are clearly rhetorical (accusations disguised as questions), I raise the possibility that such a Clint Davis is less than sincere. So even if I were just someone who is tired of being told that love is the answer–which it is, but not anything that anyone else can tell you should be done–I’d raise the possibility of hypocrisy. As a wise teacher once said, “Physician, heal thyself.”

By: Clint Davis

Clint Davis — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:39:03 +0000

A well-educated and articulate leadership is essential for religious health. It is only when people do nothing but articulate that we get church-as-philosophy club. Buddhism and the various Hinduisms have extremely rich philosophical traditions–and gorgeous artistic expression, sometimes ecstatic religious worship and strong communities too. Growing up in rural Oklahoma, some of the most well-educated and articulate people were Episcopal priests in nearby Fort Smith, AR. I admired them so much I thought I wanted to be one of them, until the discernment process did it’s job and I discovered “Not here and now.”
And who are you to say I trivialize the bonds of love within a religious community? I’ve been there and seen it, and felt it and known it. It’s not just a Sunday morning feel-good, it’s a continual practice rooted in trust and shared experience. I’m a music director for Catholics, and the choir (and I!) are some close-knit folks, there’s lots of love in that loft. Just because I don’t share their Church’s explanations of what it all means doesn’t diminish the love, or my capacity to find meaning, challenge, joy and of course, Music in the liturgy.
Finally don’t fall into the trap that all poor people are nice people in cheap clothes, or that all rich people are greedy power-mongers in designer jeans. Growing up, it wasn’t the rich people who were physically threatening to this High Episcopalian proto-gay kid in a divided Baptist/Assembly of God town!

By: January

January — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:28:39 +0000

Why cannot religion be articulate without being dismissed as “a philosophy club”? The American tradition of an educated clergy begins with the founders. Yes, subsequently the revivalist great awakenings attracted a lot of people with the idea that sin condemns us to eternal torment. Without education, people accepted that for a long time. Today the very traditions that prospered from that brand barely mention it, because no one any longer believes they are going to hell.

Does American institutional religion reflect the American class divides? Does a bear…well, you know the rest. Is American institutional religion prepared to confront American class divides? I doubt it. To me, that’s the issue. Clergy are like politicians who depend on the rich. Those who pay the piper call the tune. Money talks, b.s. walks.

And that includes “love the person next to you.” It’s easy to *love* them (whatever that means: eros? I doubt it; filia? maybe;. agape? who is capable of that?) when you can walk away from them following the postlude. Love is god is more likely to be the motivation than God is love. It’s a pity to trivialize such significance. But that’s all a part of living in the new dark ages.

By: Clint Davis

Clint Davis — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:26:35 +0000

First of all, Jamie, I’m not at all surprised at your experience. I’ve seen some really difficult people in the pews at my local Unitarian church here in Oklahoma City, lots of scowling and flinching and general social dis-ease, so bad it was almost comical. At least your difficult people were honest enough to tell you how they really felt! Nothing ever gets fixed if people aren’t honest up front.
David: while I realize that worship styles were only tangential to your main point, I find that everything comes out at church, in church, by church.
Why are white, liberal religionists so shy? Why all the social anxiety? Why all the fear of failure? Who put it there? What’s the problem? This is a HUGE self-confidence problem, at the root. What is it that you feel is wrong with your theology, and your hymnody? Why do you dislike yourselves so much? Why do you feel like the grass is always greener somewhere else? Why is your theological language so dispassionate, so empty, so desperate to fix everything that might be wrong with it, so desperate to be right? Why is mythic language so vehemently avoided? Why is it always explained away? Why the need to explain it away, esp. at church? Why do people even come to church, if not to experience that which transforms and moves us beyond? How is that going to happen if everything is so nice all the time? Why is everything explained away in the very place were explanations might not be appropriate? Why are liberal religionists trying so hard to organize free group therapy sessions, instead of having church? Why do you need a church to practice social justice, or to set up interactions with different classes and cultures (Even Freemasonry used to do that!)? Why come together as a church at all, instead just create a charity or whatever? Inspirational preaching and teaching and dynamic music–by whose standards? Who gets to tell you that what you’re doing is inspirational and dynamic? And who cares? Is it really all about YOU anyway? What you want? Who cares what YOU or Rev. So and So, or Little Miss Dissatisfied wants, what does Unitarianism and Universalism require? If it requires nothing religious, just feeling good, why even go to church? Why not just hang out at someone’s house, drinking coffee and singing along with gospel CD’s, or perhaps some Krishna Das kirtan singing: all of which I enjoy a lot, but why would I want to go to church if I can do that in my living room, or at someone else’s church?
Faith happens when you have NOTHING LEFT, but you go forward anyway. Yet y’all want EVERYTHING. You’re asking the wrong questions, going on fool’s errands. Downsize even farther. Tell your parishioners, “If you don’t want to love the person next to you, go home now. If you don’t want to deepen these relationships by a shared religious experience, leave now and don’t go to any church or temple until you’re ready to do that. We DO have THINGS to DO, that REQUIRE things of every person in this room, and the first requirement is trust. If you just want ethical guidance and self-congratulations, start a philosophy club with your friends and meet on your own time. This here, this is the Church’s time, when we come to be refreshed in a way that we can’t be refreshed by anything else, anywhere else, with anyone else. If you are a guest, we are honored to have you here, and you will be welcomed and cared for, but not coddled or babied.”
Give it all up. If there’s no faith, there’s no church, its just a pretty club house, another place for pretty people to go and bore themselves to death.

By: January

January — Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:04:52 +0000

If the issue is one of style, I expect we shall never be able to work together. I am not going to wear baggy pants that expose my underwear nor my baseball cap backward, etc. I don’t expect that classical music concerts will ever try to be rock concerts, even while one can make money in the latter and the former are struggling. I will not speak the street vernacular even if dj’s play it 24 hours a day–which they are doing. And I live in a multi-racial family with youth who are tempted by style everyday.

Liberal religion has dimensions and issues of style but only because we live at a time when theology is suffering (sic) from too much information. Yes, even in religion there are questions of style, but one can measure the integrity of religion to the extent that style, alone, is a minor matter.

We live in a time when one can get a degree in religious studies in higher education that has no denominational style attached to it. Religion is an academic field in public universities. No one needs a degree to attend a religious service, but the tradition of an educated clergy will always be disjunctive with a clergy of enthusiasm alone.

Competition between belief and love is nonsense. Everyone who is thoughtful believes. Everyone who is human loves. The significant distinction is that some feel a need for justifying what they believe and how they love and others do not. Some are serious and others are not. I hope those who have been serious enough to seek education will not measure themselves by those who are frivolous. The latter may look like they are having more fun, but shuking and jiving have always paraded as fun. Life is work, and work can be enjoyed.