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	<title>Comments on: The Government versus the Law</title>
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	<description>A Voice for Tikkun Olam (healing the world)</description>
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		<title>By: Ed Stamm</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2010/01/26/the-government-versus-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-5443</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Stamm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 09:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=9513#comment-5443</guid>
		<description>I think Mr. Marmorek&#039;s last post sort of makes the point I wanted to make - that &quot;the law&quot; can be used for good (habeas corpus) or for evil (Hitler&#039;s Final Solution laws). We shouldn&#039;t make an idol out of the law, as Martin Luther King, Jr. pointed out. But then, as the Thomas More quote points out, without any law there is nothing to constrain the powerful or the evil. On the other hand, anarchists oppose law because, historically, they considered laws to be simply the means by which elites control the masses, and that all laws are written in the interest of the ruling class. For example, if an aristocrat kills a commoner, he can pay the family some money and end the matter, but if a commoner kills and aristocrat, the commoner is horribly tortured to death. Or, a more modern example, it&#039;s illegal to demonstrate outside the designated &quot;free speech&quot; zone, but not illegal for the government to read your private email. Many have gone to jail for the former, and none for the latter. But it&#039;s clear that, in the modern age, in at least some countries, the government sometimes loses, the government is not always working exclusively for the elite, and that some laws are not class-biased. So I think there are &quot;good&quot; laws and &quot;bad&quot; laws, and that people will sometimes disagree which are which. Is a law forcing people to buy private health insurance good or bad? But I think, as weak, fallible human beings, we do need some guidelines. &quot;Thou shalt not kill&quot; is a good example (without the exemptions for wars of aggression or the death penalty, however). Oh, and of course, there is Orwell&#039;s example of the rules the animals write after their revolution against the farmer, in his book &quot;Animal Farm&quot;. The pigs gradually modify the commandments to abolish equality, support their seizure of power, and justify their reign of terror.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Mr. Marmorek&#8217;s last post sort of makes the point I wanted to make &#8211; that &#8220;the law&#8221; can be used for good (habeas corpus) or for evil (Hitler&#8217;s Final Solution laws). We shouldn&#8217;t make an idol out of the law, as Martin Luther King, Jr. pointed out. But then, as the Thomas More quote points out, without any law there is nothing to constrain the powerful or the evil. On the other hand, anarchists oppose law because, historically, they considered laws to be simply the means by which elites control the masses, and that all laws are written in the interest of the ruling class. For example, if an aristocrat kills a commoner, he can pay the family some money and end the matter, but if a commoner kills and aristocrat, the commoner is horribly tortured to death. Or, a more modern example, it&#8217;s illegal to demonstrate outside the designated &#8220;free speech&#8221; zone, but not illegal for the government to read your private email. Many have gone to jail for the former, and none for the latter. But it&#8217;s clear that, in the modern age, in at least some countries, the government sometimes loses, the government is not always working exclusively for the elite, and that some laws are not class-biased. So I think there are &#8220;good&#8221; laws and &#8220;bad&#8221; laws, and that people will sometimes disagree which are which. Is a law forcing people to buy private health insurance good or bad? But I think, as weak, fallible human beings, we do need some guidelines. &#8220;Thou shalt not kill&#8221; is a good example (without the exemptions for wars of aggression or the death penalty, however). Oh, and of course, there is Orwell&#8217;s example of the rules the animals write after their revolution against the farmer, in his book &#8220;Animal Farm&#8221;. The pigs gradually modify the commandments to abolish equality, support their seizure of power, and justify their reign of terror.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Marmorek</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2010/01/26/the-government-versus-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-5346</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Marmorek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 12:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=9513#comment-5346</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;.... because the compass is very narrow. Eli&#039;s piece is more broad &lt;/em&gt;

Only in America could a piece that looks only at America be considered more broad than one that looks at the world. (grin) 

Both Sara&#039;s piece and David&#039;s are interesting well researched writing that look at what is happening politically in the US. I agree with their focus, but was trying to step outside the narrow US blinders. You are right that focussing on the law is narrower than their (and Eli&#039;s) societal focus; I&#039;d argue that if we had the law the rest wouldn&#039;t matter. I think of Thomas More, as depicted in &quot;A Man for All Seasons&quot; saying&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? ... And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you - where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, Man&#039;s laws, not God&#039;s, and if you cut them down -- and you&#039;re just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety&#039;s sake!&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8230;. because the compass is very narrow. Eli&#8217;s piece is more broad </em></p>
<p>Only in America could a piece that looks only at America be considered more broad than one that looks at the world. (grin) </p>
<p>Both Sara&#8217;s piece and David&#8217;s are interesting well researched writing that look at what is happening politically in the US. I agree with their focus, but was trying to step outside the narrow US blinders. You are right that focussing on the law is narrower than their (and Eli&#8217;s) societal focus; I&#8217;d argue that if we had the law the rest wouldn&#8217;t matter. I think of Thomas More, as depicted in &#8220;A Man for All Seasons&#8221; saying<br />
<blockquote>&#8220;What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? &#8230; And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you &#8211; where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, Man&#8217;s laws, not God&#8217;s, and if you cut them down &#8212; and you&#8217;re just the man to do it &#8212; do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety&#8217;s sake!&#8221;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: JustJack</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2010/01/26/the-government-versus-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-5321</link>
		<dc:creator>JustJack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 22:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=9513#comment-5321</guid>
		<description>Wonderful analysis but it does not disagree with Zarestky&#039;s piece... well, at least the way I read it, because the compass is very narrow. Eli&#039;s piece is more broad. Sara Robinson over on America&#039;s Future has an even broader compass which includes the decline of the rule of law and the rise of American proto-fascism, in a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2009083205/fascist-america-are-we-there-yet&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;three part series&lt;/a&gt;. Again I reiterate David Neiwert&#039;s work on the subject at his &lt;a href=&quot;http://dneiwert.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Orcinus&lt;/a&gt; blog. 

Setting all that aside, I very much enjoyed this piece focusing on the decline of the rule of law. Particularly the last portion on David Kelly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful analysis but it does not disagree with Zarestky&#8217;s piece&#8230; well, at least the way I read it, because the compass is very narrow. Eli&#8217;s piece is more broad. Sara Robinson over on America&#8217;s Future has an even broader compass which includes the decline of the rule of law and the rise of American proto-fascism, in a <a href="http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2009083205/fascist-america-are-we-there-yet" rel="nofollow">three part series</a>. Again I reiterate David Neiwert&#8217;s work on the subject at his <a href="http://dneiwert.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Orcinus</a> blog. </p>
<p>Setting all that aside, I very much enjoyed this piece focusing on the decline of the rule of law. Particularly the last portion on David Kelly.</p>
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		<title>By: David Barkham</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2010/01/26/the-government-versus-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-5304</link>
		<dc:creator>David Barkham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 16:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=9513#comment-5304</guid>
		<description>Insh&#039;Allah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Insh&#8217;Allah.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Marmorek</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2010/01/26/the-government-versus-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-5275</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Marmorek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=9513#comment-5275</guid>
		<description>First you say one question, and then you add another! Sheesh  :--)

It&#039;s a glass half full, or half empty dichotomy. Eli&#039;s piece focuses on the rise of &quot;extra-legal authoritarian elements,&quot; whereas I&#039;m looking at the decline of judicial safeguards. He&#039;s looking at a wider range, including public/ corporate attitudes as a causal force, whereas I think the key cause is the abandonment of a universal system of law. One reason for our differences may be that in the US the people seem to support some of this change (see poll cited above) whereas in Canada the people are largely opposed to much of what the government is doing.

Your second question is interesting. Though also a Brit by birth, I grew up in Canada, where we were taught about Magna Carta (1215, Runnymede... and I can&#039;t remember the names of people I met yesterday) as being the great English achievement. But I remember Paul (in Acts) claiming the right of Roman citizenship as protection, so clearly there were some precursors. I don&#039;t know of any country that had &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Magna Carta&lt;/a&gt; rights earlier... but I&#039;d welcome learning if any reader can enlighten me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First you say one question, and then you add another! Sheesh  :&#8211;)</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a glass half full, or half empty dichotomy. Eli&#8217;s piece focuses on the rise of &#8220;extra-legal authoritarian elements,&#8221; whereas I&#8217;m looking at the decline of judicial safeguards. He&#8217;s looking at a wider range, including public/ corporate attitudes as a causal force, whereas I think the key cause is the abandonment of a universal system of law. One reason for our differences may be that in the US the people seem to support some of this change (see poll cited above) whereas in Canada the people are largely opposed to much of what the government is doing.</p>
<p>Your second question is interesting. Though also a Brit by birth, I grew up in Canada, where we were taught about Magna Carta (1215, Runnymede&#8230; and I can&#8217;t remember the names of people I met yesterday) as being the great English achievement. But I remember Paul (in Acts) claiming the right of Roman citizenship as protection, so clearly there were some precursors. I don&#8217;t know of any country that had <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta" rel="nofollow">Magna Carta</a> rights earlier&#8230; but I&#8217;d welcome learning if any reader can enlighten me.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Belden</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2010/01/26/the-government-versus-the-law/comment-page-1/#comment-5274</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Belden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 21:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=9513#comment-5274</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Peter, a terrific post. One question: Eli took care to say that what he was talking about was proto-fascism, which he defined as &quot;extra-legal authoritarian elements.&quot; This seems to be what you are describing also, but you expressed disagreement. Maybe you were wary of that horribly overused word &quot;fascism&quot; but then Eli was as well. 

Another question: as a Brit by birth and my first 32 years, though now also a US citizen, I am heartened to hear viable claims about the unique or great contributions of my natal land to the world (since it is more common on the Left to only be aware of its -- very real -- imperial and capitalist failings). But to argue that &quot;the subordination of government to law... was an English achievement &quot; seems to be stretching it a little! Yes, much was achieved, and much was also honored by the non-observance of said achievements. But a few other lands and peoples also discovered the law, I hear. [My uncle was a big-time government lawyer in England and given to conservative opinions, and I recall dreading his pontificatory entry into a conversation about South Africa one time in my youth, only to be astonished at how totally he condemned apartheid for abrogating the freedoms of English law. He would agree with much of your post, if he were still here. He was also lame from a truck accident incurred while he was scabbing in the General Strike of 1926, so there were a good number of freedoms he didn&#039;t endorse]. 

Incidentally, those who have followed the Avatar discussions here and elsewhere may wonder what Juan Cole was referring to might like to read this, a link sent to me by Peter Gabel: http://www.aolhealth.com/condition-center/depression/avatar-causes-depression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Peter, a terrific post. One question: Eli took care to say that what he was talking about was proto-fascism, which he defined as &#8220;extra-legal authoritarian elements.&#8221; This seems to be what you are describing also, but you expressed disagreement. Maybe you were wary of that horribly overused word &#8220;fascism&#8221; but then Eli was as well. </p>
<p>Another question: as a Brit by birth and my first 32 years, though now also a US citizen, I am heartened to hear viable claims about the unique or great contributions of my natal land to the world (since it is more common on the Left to only be aware of its &#8212; very real &#8212; imperial and capitalist failings). But to argue that &#8220;the subordination of government to law&#8230; was an English achievement &#8221; seems to be stretching it a little! Yes, much was achieved, and much was also honored by the non-observance of said achievements. But a few other lands and peoples also discovered the law, I hear. [My uncle was a big-time government lawyer in England and given to conservative opinions, and I recall dreading his pontificatory entry into a conversation about South Africa one time in my youth, only to be astonished at how totally he condemned apartheid for abrogating the freedoms of English law. He would agree with much of your post, if he were still here. He was also lame from a truck accident incurred while he was scabbing in the General Strike of 1926, so there were a good number of freedoms he didn't endorse]. </p>
<p>Incidentally, those who have followed the Avatar discussions here and elsewhere may wonder what Juan Cole was referring to might like to read this, a link sent to me by Peter Gabel: <a href="http://www.aolhealth.com/condition-center/depression/avatar-causes-depression" rel="nofollow">http://www.aolhealth.com/condition-center/depression/avatar-causes-depression</a>.</p>
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