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	<title>Comments on: Raving at LovEvolution: SF&#8217;s Biggest Congregation</title>
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	<description>A Voice for Tikkun Olam (healing the world)</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Lockhart</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-2130</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Lockhart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-2130</guid>
		<description>In my experience, there are two kinds of people: those who want to push things to a goal, and those who want to create connection and allow goals to fluidly emerge. The two do not get along well as a rule, and any organically-formed group will resist attempts by outsiders to harness the energy for political purposes. That&#039;s why raves are a spiritual experience -- they don&#039;t impose the culture&#039;s usual goal-seeking mindset on something formed by an entirely different process. 

It&#039;s the ego, and guilt behind it, that drives us to think we need to push people to do anything. At a rave, the only thing pushing people is the music. Walls do not exist. It&#039;s like a taste of heaven, and what you do with it afterwards is up to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my experience, there are two kinds of people: those who want to push things to a goal, and those who want to create connection and allow goals to fluidly emerge. The two do not get along well as a rule, and any organically-formed group will resist attempts by outsiders to harness the energy for political purposes. That&#8217;s why raves are a spiritual experience &#8212; they don&#8217;t impose the culture&#8217;s usual goal-seeking mindset on something formed by an entirely different process. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s the ego, and guilt behind it, that drives us to think we need to push people to do anything. At a rave, the only thing pushing people is the music. Walls do not exist. It&#8217;s like a taste of heaven, and what you do with it afterwards is up to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Hungry Hyaena</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1939</link>
		<dc:creator>Hungry Hyaena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 18:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1939</guid>
		<description>Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Erin.

You wrote, &quot;I would hope that those in attendance at LovEvolution felt inspired by the community and congregation that they experienced and use that as a starting point to spark real change in the world.&quot;

I agree, and I hope that my skepticism about the event is unfounded.  It is, after all, skepticism and cynicism (like my own about LovEvolution) that keep so many individuals from commiting to local or national social justice action.  I try not to excuse myself from my own critique, uncomfortable though that can be! ;)

I appreciate your point that events like LovEvolution aren&#039;t about &quot;forgetting what we stand for,&quot; but rather for &quot;remembering what we&#039;re fighting for.&quot;  It&#039;s provides me with good food for thought.

Still, I can&#039;t help but feel that every action is necessarily political, even the assertion of apolitical activity, even the assertion of fun for fun&#039;s sake.  Moreover, as you suggest, it&#039;s easier for people to love another when there is no agenda on the table.  But that doesn&#039;t mean that real community is forged.  Our species has a terrible track record of partying together when the warring is temporarily halted, only to pick up arms and resume fighting under our respective standards at daybreak.  There may be value in an amoral party, and I respect your insistence on that point, but I remain skeptical that the party congregation might evolve into moral action.  You&#039;ve encouraged me to cling to a hopeful assessment, though, and for that I thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Erin.</p>
<p>You wrote, &#8220;I would hope that those in attendance at LovEvolution felt inspired by the community and congregation that they experienced and use that as a starting point to spark real change in the world.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree, and I hope that my skepticism about the event is unfounded.  It is, after all, skepticism and cynicism (like my own about LovEvolution) that keep so many individuals from commiting to local or national social justice action.  I try not to excuse myself from my own critique, uncomfortable though that can be! ;)</p>
<p>I appreciate your point that events like LovEvolution aren&#8217;t about &#8220;forgetting what we stand for,&#8221; but rather for &#8220;remembering what we&#8217;re fighting for.&#8221;  It&#8217;s provides me with good food for thought.</p>
<p>Still, I can&#8217;t help but feel that every action is necessarily political, even the assertion of apolitical activity, even the assertion of fun for fun&#8217;s sake.  Moreover, as you suggest, it&#8217;s easier for people to love another when there is no agenda on the table.  But that doesn&#8217;t mean that real community is forged.  Our species has a terrible track record of partying together when the warring is temporarily halted, only to pick up arms and resume fighting under our respective standards at daybreak.  There may be value in an amoral party, and I respect your insistence on that point, but I remain skeptical that the party congregation might evolve into moral action.  You&#8217;ve encouraged me to cling to a hopeful assessment, though, and for that I thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin Shitama</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1924</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Shitama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1924</guid>
		<description>Thank you so much for all of the comments. It&#039;s great to be a part of a live dialogue. 

In response to some of your comments, especially those posted by Peter and Hyaena, I do agree with you in some respects. Just throwing a party once a year, no matter how many it draws, is not enough. Rather, I would hope that those in attendance at LovEvolution felt inspired by the community and congregation that they experienced and use that as a starting point to spark real change in the world. And as Susannah stated, many attendees do possess that attitude and spirit of love and common humanity and they do belong to movements that change the world for the better.  

What makes me hesitate is the suggestion that LovEvolution could be improved by adding a moral basis. To which I ask: whose morals? mine? yours? LovEvolution is supposed to be about inclusion.  As soon as you try to put a moral basis behind it, make it a movement, make it political, you begin to put up walls where there were no walls.  And soon a gathering of 100,000 people is 50,000 and then 10,000, and people are focusing on ideologies rather than the original intent--just being together.  I&#039;m not asking that people compromise their beliefs or standards for the sake of popularity, but I appreciate the festival because it&#039;s not political. We set aside our differences for a few hours and become one community. That&#039;s the point! It&#039;s not forgetting what we stand for, it&#039;s remembering what we&#039;re fighting for. 

And in response to Hyaena, there are certainly dark sides to raves and festivals. There are people who desperately try to escape from themselves and drug overdoses and alcohol poisoning are a dangerous side of that. But let&#039;s not forget that escapism can be found anywhere where people feel isolated or discontent. I&#039;ve seen individuals lose their identities in religious and cult-like organizations, thinking that these communities would provide emotional and spiritual fulfillment. These people are not so different from the young raver who&#039;s so far gone he can&#039;t remember his own name. Let&#039;s just hope there will always be someone around to hold them in their time of need and help them realize that that form of escapism will never be fulfilling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much for all of the comments. It&#8217;s great to be a part of a live dialogue. </p>
<p>In response to some of your comments, especially those posted by Peter and Hyaena, I do agree with you in some respects. Just throwing a party once a year, no matter how many it draws, is not enough. Rather, I would hope that those in attendance at LovEvolution felt inspired by the community and congregation that they experienced and use that as a starting point to spark real change in the world. And as Susannah stated, many attendees do possess that attitude and spirit of love and common humanity and they do belong to movements that change the world for the better.  </p>
<p>What makes me hesitate is the suggestion that LovEvolution could be improved by adding a moral basis. To which I ask: whose morals? mine? yours? LovEvolution is supposed to be about inclusion.  As soon as you try to put a moral basis behind it, make it a movement, make it political, you begin to put up walls where there were no walls.  And soon a gathering of 100,000 people is 50,000 and then 10,000, and people are focusing on ideologies rather than the original intent&#8211;just being together.  I&#8217;m not asking that people compromise their beliefs or standards for the sake of popularity, but I appreciate the festival because it&#8217;s not political. We set aside our differences for a few hours and become one community. That&#8217;s the point! It&#8217;s not forgetting what we stand for, it&#8217;s remembering what we&#8217;re fighting for. </p>
<p>And in response to Hyaena, there are certainly dark sides to raves and festivals. There are people who desperately try to escape from themselves and drug overdoses and alcohol poisoning are a dangerous side of that. But let&#8217;s not forget that escapism can be found anywhere where people feel isolated or discontent. I&#8217;ve seen individuals lose their identities in religious and cult-like organizations, thinking that these communities would provide emotional and spiritual fulfillment. These people are not so different from the young raver who&#8217;s so far gone he can&#8217;t remember his own name. Let&#8217;s just hope there will always be someone around to hold them in their time of need and help them realize that that form of escapism will never be fulfilling.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Haber</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1919</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Haber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1919</guid>
		<description>Burning Man is very connected to efforts at bringing the &quot;high&quot; to the world outside of itself, and in socially positive ways...in the extreme.

Check out Burners without Borders to see some of it. Certainly, as with any movement, the masses are less involved in the more evolved parts of it, but Burning Man is more connected than it is given credit.

I&#039;m not involved in Burners Without Borders, but know of their work. I was at Burning Man when Katrina hit New Orleans. $35,000 was raised during the event, and right afterwards, people with skills and tools went down there and really made a difference when the government was not. Just one example.

I sometimes feel a spiritual vibe at rave type events; not at this particular one, but I got there late, briefly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Burning Man is very connected to efforts at bringing the &#8220;high&#8221; to the world outside of itself, and in socially positive ways&#8230;in the extreme.</p>
<p>Check out Burners without Borders to see some of it. Certainly, as with any movement, the masses are less involved in the more evolved parts of it, but Burning Man is more connected than it is given credit.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not involved in Burners Without Borders, but know of their work. I was at Burning Man when Katrina hit New Orleans. $35,000 was raised during the event, and right afterwards, people with skills and tools went down there and really made a difference when the government was not. Just one example.</p>
<p>I sometimes feel a spiritual vibe at rave type events; not at this particular one, but I got there late, briefly.</p>
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		<title>By: nadia</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1917</link>
		<dc:creator>nadia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1917</guid>
		<description>I am delighted in  whole of my heart to see that Dave Balden and Hungry Hyaena ARE ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS..O nli true Gog and creator,the god of Abrahan,Isaac and Jacob is reveiling answers on these questions  to all these interested in nim and are seeaking to find those answers My god of Abraham,Isacc and Jacob bless them and grant them mercy that they may SEEK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am delighted in  whole of my heart to see that Dave Balden and Hungry Hyaena ARE ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS..O nli true Gog and creator,the god of Abrahan,Isaac and Jacob is reveiling answers on these questions  to all these interested in nim and are seeaking to find those answers My god of Abraham,Isacc and Jacob bless them and grant them mercy that they may SEEK</p>
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		<title>By: Hungry Hyaena</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1909</link>
		<dc:creator>Hungry Hyaena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1909</guid>
		<description>I admire the optimistic joy expressed by many of the individuals who attend and participate in events such as LovEvolution, but I share Peter Gabel&#039;s skepticism.  Having participated in similar events myself (and having talked to friends and acquaintances who have participated in many more such events, including Burning Man), it seems to me that, while the sense of community aspired to is genuine, the community actually generated is temporal and superficial.

Were we to ask those who gather to be blissed out on ecstasy, to dance in their birthday suit, and to speak an abundance of happy platitudes to instead spend the day volunteering for San Francisco&#039;s less fortunate, for local environmental causes, or to involve themselves in the politics of social justice, and you&#039;d likely have a small fraction of the turnout.  As the writer of the piece says, &quot;everybody loves an excuse for a party,&quot; but dancing and having fun must only be the seed.  Why don&#039;t the organizers of events like LovEvolution attempt to harness the &quot;community&quot; established for the post-orgy work that is needed to forge true community, especially at the local scale?  Some have tried, in fact, and no one shows up.

I don&#039;t mean to discount these parties entirely.  I&#039;ve enjoyed the &quot;community&quot; and camaraderie of drug-induced love fests as well as communal, natural highs (like the author of the above piece).  I don&#039;t wish to judge the LovEvolution participants unfairly (or to judge them at all!).  Rather, I second Dave Belden&#039;s question: &quot;How it is that people in large numbers make that huge leap to believing that they can actually change the wider world?&quot;

Certainly, we should welcome all manner of attempts to figure out that &quot;how,&quot; but, having been the guy who cares for the overdosed raver who weeps in the corner and can&#039;t remember his name, and the guy who has watched intelligent, sensitive friends devote themselves to attending festival after festival until they&#039;re a dopamine-depleted and bitter husk, I feel that it&#039;s naive to view these events as a possible path to answering that question.

Hopefully, I&#039;m totally wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admire the optimistic joy expressed by many of the individuals who attend and participate in events such as LovEvolution, but I share Peter Gabel&#8217;s skepticism.  Having participated in similar events myself (and having talked to friends and acquaintances who have participated in many more such events, including Burning Man), it seems to me that, while the sense of community aspired to is genuine, the community actually generated is temporal and superficial.</p>
<p>Were we to ask those who gather to be blissed out on ecstasy, to dance in their birthday suit, and to speak an abundance of happy platitudes to instead spend the day volunteering for San Francisco&#8217;s less fortunate, for local environmental causes, or to involve themselves in the politics of social justice, and you&#8217;d likely have a small fraction of the turnout.  As the writer of the piece says, &#8220;everybody loves an excuse for a party,&#8221; but dancing and having fun must only be the seed.  Why don&#8217;t the organizers of events like LovEvolution attempt to harness the &#8220;community&#8221; established for the post-orgy work that is needed to forge true community, especially at the local scale?  Some have tried, in fact, and no one shows up.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to discount these parties entirely.  I&#8217;ve enjoyed the &#8220;community&#8221; and camaraderie of drug-induced love fests as well as communal, natural highs (like the author of the above piece).  I don&#8217;t wish to judge the LovEvolution participants unfairly (or to judge them at all!).  Rather, I second Dave Belden&#8217;s question: &#8220;How it is that people in large numbers make that huge leap to believing that they can actually change the wider world?&#8221;</p>
<p>Certainly, we should welcome all manner of attempts to figure out that &#8220;how,&#8221; but, having been the guy who cares for the overdosed raver who weeps in the corner and can&#8217;t remember his name, and the guy who has watched intelligent, sensitive friends devote themselves to attending festival after festival until they&#8217;re a dopamine-depleted and bitter husk, I feel that it&#8217;s naive to view these events as a possible path to answering that question.</p>
<p>Hopefully, I&#8217;m totally wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Susannah Schoff</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1874</link>
		<dc:creator>Susannah Schoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 03:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1874</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Erin, for this take on the LovEvolution festivities! I completely agree that the feelings of community, love, and acceptance make it an awesome event to be a part of. For many of us, it&#039;s a kind of spiritual experience we don&#039;t find in organized religion. It doesn&#039;t take drugs, dancing, furry boots, or electronic music (as fun as those aspects are) to become a part of something bigger and better than oneself--rather, it&#039;s the attitude of the people who attend that makes it possible. And I do believe that although this event only happens once a year, that attitude and spirit can be seen and felt in many of the attendees every day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Erin, for this take on the LovEvolution festivities! I completely agree that the feelings of community, love, and acceptance make it an awesome event to be a part of. For many of us, it&#8217;s a kind of spiritual experience we don&#8217;t find in organized religion. It doesn&#8217;t take drugs, dancing, furry boots, or electronic music (as fun as those aspects are) to become a part of something bigger and better than oneself&#8211;rather, it&#8217;s the attitude of the people who attend that makes it possible. And I do believe that although this event only happens once a year, that attitude and spirit can be seen and felt in many of the attendees every day.</p>
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		<title>By: Ani Ahavah</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1865</link>
		<dc:creator>Ani Ahavah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 19:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1865</guid>
		<description>Erin, your languaging of this CommUnity phenomenon is superb. I would like to use some of the descriptive phraseology you have used, if I may, in my own efforts to invite, build and celebrate community coming together in Santa Barbara. Thank you for reading the pulse of our Collective Heart&#039;s desire so well and communicating it so flawlessly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erin, your languaging of this CommUnity phenomenon is superb. I would like to use some of the descriptive phraseology you have used, if I may, in my own efforts to invite, build and celebrate community coming together in Santa Barbara. Thank you for reading the pulse of our Collective Heart&#8217;s desire so well and communicating it so flawlessly.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Belden</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1862</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Belden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1862</guid>
		<description>To Sally: just click on Erin&#039;s name to see her photo and bio (as with any Tikkun Daily blogger). Erin started here only about three weeks ago and has been a huge help: we could not have got the NovDec issue of Tikkun done without her, so it&#039;s a thrill she has acquired such an accolade for her first post.

On Peter&#039;s point, I think the congregational similarity holds here too: some congregations do stop short at being escapes, moments of love in the week, that help us to get through the rest of the week in &#039;the world&#039; and they can actually dissuade people from reforming the world if they preach it is all a vale of tears, as many do. Other congregations do consciously participate in reforming the wider world. It&#039;s still a mystery to me to know how it is that people in large numbers make that huge leap to believing that they can actually change the wider world. Believing you could put on a LovEvolution event is a pretty big leap in itself, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Sally: just click on Erin&#8217;s name to see her photo and bio (as with any Tikkun Daily blogger). Erin started here only about three weeks ago and has been a huge help: we could not have got the NovDec issue of Tikkun done without her, so it&#8217;s a thrill she has acquired such an accolade for her first post.</p>
<p>On Peter&#8217;s point, I think the congregational similarity holds here too: some congregations do stop short at being escapes, moments of love in the week, that help us to get through the rest of the week in &#8216;the world&#8217; and they can actually dissuade people from reforming the world if they preach it is all a vale of tears, as many do. Other congregations do consciously participate in reforming the wider world. It&#8217;s still a mystery to me to know how it is that people in large numbers make that huge leap to believing that they can actually change the wider world. Believing you could put on a LovEvolution event is a pretty big leap in itself, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: peter gabel</title>
		<link>http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/2009/10/12/raving-at-lovevolution-sfs-biggest-congregation/comment-page-1/#comment-1856</link>
		<dc:creator>peter gabel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 15:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tikkun.org/tikkundaily/?p=5579#comment-1856</guid>
		<description>the affirmation and the being together is great, but like burning man, it seems disconnected from any wider effort to create a world embodying precisely these connecting, affirming, loving qualities. that aspect seems to me a recipe for disillusionment and resignation. these events seem to need to be just as they are, but with some moral direction, as they would occurring inside a movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the affirmation and the being together is great, but like burning man, it seems disconnected from any wider effort to create a world embodying precisely these connecting, affirming, loving qualities. that aspect seems to me a recipe for disillusionment and resignation. these events seem to need to be just as they are, but with some moral direction, as they would occurring inside a movement.</p>
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