The transcript below does not capture the many times Dershowitz talked over Lerner, making it impossible to hear the following points:
- Lerner's attempt to present the Domestic and Global Marshall Plan
- Lerner's attempt to say that Israel needed "tough love" but done in a way that recognized that both sides have been victims of post traumatic stress disorder and cannot be ordered around by the U.S. without negative consequences. That's why Lerner agrees that "getting tough" is not the right way to frame a policy that would hope to get Israel to end the Occupation. Israel and Jews, like the Palestinians, need to be treated with care and respect and generosity even as it is pushed toward the only possible solution (put forward in detail in Tikkun)
- That both sides have been suffering, but that in the last forty-one years the suffering of the Palestinian people has been far greater and deserves immediate care and attention, though acts of terror against Israeli civilians must stop immediately as well.
Nor does the transcript reflect the conversations which Rabbi Lerner had with the producers at CNN who assured Rabbi Lerner that they would not allow Dershowitz to make personal attacks on Lerner, such as the ones he then proceeded to make during the show.
Rabbi Lerner chose to ignore the personal attacks and try to use the tiny little bit of time available to contrast the NSP/Tikkun approach--the strategy of generosity--with that of the mainstream policy shapers and public opinion shapers in both countries who rely on various forms of soft or hard power and domination as the way to achieve peace and homeland security.
Similarly, there was no time available for Lerner to answer the misrepresentation that Dershowitz made about:
- Lerner's position on North Korea and Iran
- The notion that Israel would face genocide were it to lay down its arms
- The reality of what happened and what was offered to the Palestinians at Camp David (see articles by Jerome Slater in Tikkun that decisively refute Dershowitz's claims.
There is a legitimate case to be made that Rabbi Lerner should not engage in this kind of debate on television, since the very limited amount that can be said often makes our position look vulgar or mistaken or one-dimensional. On the other hand, the many emails that Rabbi Lerner received from people we did not previously know thanking Rabbi Lerner for articulating a peace-oriented perspective may strengthen the argument of those who say that even though Rabbi Lerner himself will look less profound and less a spiritual leader when he appears in this kind of debate format, the spreading of the message that there are voices with this level of ethical and spiritual concern is itself a "kiddush hashem" (sanctification of God's name) that should be embraced whenever possible.
What do YOU think?
Answer to RabbiLerner@tikkun.org
View the debate
Transcript
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Campbell Brown.
Every night at this time, the "Great Debate."
And we have been talking tonight about the Middle East, with our new president as we speak headed there to reach out to the Muslim world. Just before leaving, Mr. Obama met with the Israeli defense minister, Ehud Barak, at the White House, again pressing for a freeze on West Bank settlements.
Just yesterday, the president promised a more -- quote -- "honest dialogue" with Israel.
So, tonight's premise, the U.S. should get tough with Israel.
Joining us right now to debate that, from Cambridge, Massachusetts, Alan Dershowitz, attorney and Harvard Law professor, his book "The Case For Moral Clarity: Israel, Hamas and Gaza," and, from San Francisco, Rabbi Michael Lerner. He's the editor of the Jewish-American political magazine -- political magazine, rather -- "Tikkun."
And, first, we're going to have an opening statement from each of you. You have got 30 seconds each on the clock.
Rabbi Lerner, please begin.
RABBI MICHAEL LERNER, EDITOR, TIKKUN.ORG: Well, I rejoice in President Obama's new direction, in his willingness to rethink the old dogmas that guided the United States in the 20th century.
In the 21st century, the best interests of the United States and Israel will depend on three key things, number one, recognizing that our well-being as -- as Americans or as Israelis or as Jews -- I'm a rabbi -- depends upon the well-being of everyone else on the planet.
Number two, that homeland security cannot be achieved through domination and military power alone. It requires a new spirit of generosity and caring for others. And I think part of what President Obama's trying to do is to bring that to the -- to the Middle East.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: OK.
All right, professor Dershowitz, go ahead.
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, "THE CASE FOR MORAL CLARITY: ISRAEL, HAMAS AND GAZA": We should get tough on Iran, Hamas, al Qaeda and other terrorist groups that endanger America.
But, at a time, when -- I agree with Rabbi Lerner -- we are appropriately reaching out in a conciliatory tone to many of our terrorist enemies, we should not be singling out a democratic ally, in Israel, to get tough.
But Rabbi Lerner doesn't want us to get tough with Iran or North Korea. This is what he recently wrote -- quote -- "What exactly gives us the moral right to be lecturing North Korea or even Iran on who should or should not have nuclear weapons?"
So, let me understand Rabbi Lerner. He wants to get tough on Israel, our ally, but not get tough on Iran or North Korea. That's backwards.
BROWN: Go ahead, Rabbi.
LERNER: What I actually -- yes, what I actually want is for us to be really caring about Israel. To really care about Israel at this historical moment means to say no to its right-wing government and to the right-wing forces that we have nurtured over the course of the past 30 or 40 years, and instead say yes to those Israelis, strong number of Israelis, who are for peace and recognize that Israeli's best interests involve ending the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, creating a Palestinian state, providing reparations for Palestinians as well as for Jews who have fled Arab lands, when they were oppressed there, and creating a whole new spirit. And that new spirit is what will bring peace not more military obstinance, not refusal to dismantle the settlements in the West Bank, not demanding that...
BROWN: OK.
LERNER: ... when Israel has the right to expand those settlements. That's not going to help Israel. It's the opposite.
BROWN: Let's give Professor Dershowitz a chance to respond.
DERSHOWITZ: I, too, am in favor of reaching out. I, too, am in favor of making peace. I, too, am against the settlements and the occupation.
The question is not to condition American defense of Israel from Iranian nuclear weapons or from Hamas terrorism on political issues with Israel. The vast majority of Israelis want to see peace. They want to see a two-state solution.
Remember that in 2000-2001, Israel offered to end the entire occupation of the West Bank, the entire occupation of the Gaza, simply in exchange for recognition. The Palestinians said no, as they have for 60 years. It's tough to get tough. It's time to get tough on those who are barriers to peace, not those who sought peace for all of these years.
BROWN: But let me have you assess, as Rabbi Lerner did, Professor Dershowitz, President Obama's strategy or the way he's approaching it now.
DERSHOWITZ: Well, I favor President Obama's strategy. Generally, what he's saying is not getting tough with Israel but getting smart with Israel.
Yes, the United States will prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon no matter what it takes. Secretary of Defense Gates said that about North Korea, and they've said it about Iran as well.
Let's be smart. Let's obviously work with Israel and with the Palestinians to have mutual concessions. Let the Palestinians dismantle their infrastructure of terrorism. Let Israel have a freeze on the settlements. But getting tough sends the wrong message at a time when the Obama -- when the Obama administration is being conciliatory to our enemies. Getting tough with our friends and allies sends exactly the wrong message.
BROWN: Rabbi Lerner, go ahead.
LERNER: I don't think -- yes, Obama is not being conciliatory towards our enemies. He is being smart towards our enemies.
DERSHOWITZ: Oh, why not be smart toward Israel?
LERNER: And it would be a very good idea for the United States to have a certain degree of humility in the world when we -- when we have brought the deaths of millions of people to Iraq in the past few years, millions of deaths in Vietnam before that. And we have 10,000 of these nuclear weapons all around, post all around the world. The appropriate approach --
(CROSSTALK)
DERSHOWITZ: See, the truth is now coming out. Rabbi Lerner is anti-American.
LERNER: The appropriate approach for us is to call for universal nuclear disarmament and for the United States to take the leadership in that way. In other words, you cannot continue to dominate...
DERSHOWITZ: You know, Michael -- Rabbi Lerner --
LERNER: ... and think that you rely on military force as the only way to achieve security.
BROWN: OK.
DERSHOWITZ: Rabbi Lerner, one final -- one last word, your own -- your own --
BROWN: OK. Let's not talk over each other. Go ahead. Professor Dershowitz, go ahead.
DERSHOWITZ: Your own editor agreed with me recently in an e-mail with the following two statements -- if Israel's enemies would lay down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel would lay down their arms, there would be genocide.
There is no moral equivalence. Israel doesn't start wars, it defends itself. Israel is a potential victim of genocide from Iran. You can't make a moral case. Stop blaming America.
LERNER: And I don't want us to lay down its arms.
DERSHOWITZ: Stop trying to blame America for its efforts to bring about peace in the world. Ultimately the reason you don't like Israel, because it's an ally of the United States of America.
BROWN: All right. OK, gentlemen --
DERSHOWITZ: I love America and I support Israel.
BROWN: All right, hold your thoughts. Hold your tongues for just a moment.
LERNER: Yes.
BROWN: We're going to take a quick break. But what I'd like you to do, what I want to try to do when we come back after the break, is see if the two of you can find common ground in an area where you both agree. We'll be back with more right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're back with tonight's "Great Debate." The premise, the U.S. should get tough with Israel. Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz says no. Rabbi Michael Lerner says yes.
Rabbi Lerner, why don't you tell us? Where do you think you and Professor Dershowitz can agree?
LERNER: I think we could agree that one of the things that President Obama could do in the Middle East right now, would be to get both sides, both the Israelis and the Arabs, to understand the other side's legitimacy and what the story that both sides have, understanding that both sides have suffered and that both sides have felt depressed and both sides feel scared of the other, and that both sides need to overcome that sense that they are the only righteous victim and that the other is always the evil other.
BROWN: Professor Dershowitz?
DERSHOWITZ: I agree. I agree. I agree.
BROWN: I love hearing that.
DERSHOWITZ: Bill Clinton -- Bill Clinton didn't have to be tough on Israel to bring them to the bargaining table and get Israel to give up the entire occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, a divided Jerusalem, $35 billion reparation package. You don't get peace by being tough on the victims and being soft on the perpetrators. You don't get peace by being tough with America's allies and soft on America's enemies. It sends exactly the wrong message to terrorists.
If their terrorism produces a change of policy and gets the United States to turn against Israel...
LERNER: That sends off the wrong category.
DERSHOWITZ: ... that would be a victory of terrorism and we don't want to see terrorism.
BROWN: OK. Quickly -- quickly, Rabbi Lerner, I'll give you the last word here.
LERNER: Yes, just to say that the way for America and for Israel to get security is through genuine caring and generosity towards others, not being tough and not being soft.
DERSHOWITZ: I agree.
LERNER: But being so genuinely caring.
DERSHOWITZ: So you agree with me? You shouldn't be tough?
LERNER: Absolutely agree.
DERSHOWITZ: You agree? Thank you for conceding my point.
BROWN: Right, gentlemen, thank you for sharing your very passionate views. Professor Dershowitz and Rabbi Lerner, I appreciate your time tonight. Both of you, thank you.
LERNER: Thanks.
DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.
